" For 2026, My Theme Is Sustainable Abundance," with Claire Malmstrom, on Self- Agency, Intentional and Creative Rest, Burnout Prevention, Travel, and Boundary.

Zhou Fang: [00:00:00] Okay, we are on. Uh, hello everyone. Welcome to the intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality and intersectional identities, and of course, the stories that come with it, as well as the person who is telling the story. Um, and today I'm thrilled to welcome a peer, a friend, a guest, a volunteer body.

Um. To the program and we are gonna talk, uh, a lot of things that I think people are curious about today. And her name is Claire Mastro and she is, is, uh, HR specialist, uh, expert. Um, and Claire and I, we volunteer together at a local hr. Um. Association, like [00:01:00] an organization, and we talk a lot about people and culture and things that happen at workplace.

Um, so today I'm just very honored that Claire agreed to come and talk with me. So, um, welcome Claire, and please introduce herself to the audience.

Claire Malmstrom: Thanks, Joe. Thanks so much for having me. So my name is Claire Malmstrom. I am a fractional HR professional, and I, uh, prior to that I, uh, was an HR leader for just about 15 years or so, working with a variety of different companies in different industries and I'm, I'm going on my.

My two year mark here soon, but I've been a fractional HR professional for almost two years and it's been a really incredible energizing, stressful, all the adjectives experience.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, no, I hear you on that. Congratulations on two years.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah, well, almost [00:02:00] it'll, I, I started, it was, it was interesting. I, um, applied for my, my EIN and business in April of 2024.

So I didn't actually start practicing, but for, you know, through the state of Oregon and legally I had my business for two years.

Zhou Fang: That counts.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah, it counts. It's all great.

Zhou Fang: Congratulations. Thanks. Um, and you know, we talk a lot about hr. Um. In our volunteer life. And um, I want to invite you to share perhaps what brought you to the HR industry?

Claire Malmstrom: Well, it's interesting because I think like many HR professionals, I felt into it. Um, and. You know, when I, I went to university, I studied history. I thought I was gonna be a museum curator or an archivist, and then wow. Realized, uh, there's no jobs and no money in that. And then, [00:03:00] um, I made the decision to go to law school when I was very young, which without really having that, that life experience or that work experience.

And, and then halfway through law school. I decided, um, no, this is not for me. I am not a lawyer and I don't want to do this. And, um, what I appreciate about myself at that time is that I stuck with it. I didn't quit. I graduated with my law degree.

Zhou Fang: Wow.

Claire Malmstrom: Um, and, um, I'm happy I did that because I think ultimately it's, it's served me really well.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Um. But, you know, there was then, and then, and then the recession hit. So I graduated and shortly thereafter, and there just wasn't a lot of jobs and I, I worked for a law firm as a, as a paralegal for a little while. And then, um, took a, took a job with an a company, um, in, I was living in Eugene, Oregon at the time and took a job with the company as an executive assistant and a legal assistant.

And, um, so I worked with, um. The [00:04:00] president and the vice president of that particular company. And, um, the vice president was kind of in charge of the HR or oversaw HR at the time. And so in some of that work, I was doing some, some job description, some like HR light work. And I remember after about eight months of working there, I was in my performance review, uh, with my managers and they were like, oh, well what do you wanna do Claire?

Like, what, what are, what are your interests? Um. Um, I was like, yeah, I kind of am interested in this HR stuff. Like, I think, you know, mm, it makes sense. And, um, but given my background and you know what, what, for me at the time, it felt like I really just wanted a career. I really wanted to feel like I. I could say I was, you know, on XPath and I didn't know what that was, and I was kind of interested in HR and in that meeting, um, they said, oh, well that's really interesting, because the person who at the time, she, she was the bookkeeper in the HR professional, uh, for the organization, they said they had just met with her.[00:05:00]

She said that we're growing so much and, you know, she couldn't, she couldn't, um, keep doing both roles and she wanted to just do bookkeeping. Mm-hmm. So here was this HR position that was open and that they needed to fill. And here I was saying, yeah, I'm kind of interested in this HR thing, and they. They gave me that role.

And so, uh, it was sort of this, uh, for like fortunate, I don't know, kismet, like just

Zhou Fang: mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Alignment of whatever to come to like, here's this opportunity. And I really, I took it and I ran with it, and just, here I am all these years later.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I feel most of us don't have a conventional path.

Yeah. Uh, you know, it's not, it's not like a, a fairytale or like, if you follow these steps, you'll be fine.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, like most of us have to take a detour or multiple detours. Yeah. And I feel what kind of like stood out to me in your story or like [00:06:00] your background? Um, entering to HR is the open-mindedness. I felt you were like, yeah.

Very open and curious about the things you do.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah,

Zhou Fang: so I think that's kind of like my takeaway there.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: And tell me why you feel your background from, or your education from law school actually is very beneficial for you.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah, it really is that legal compliance piece of it. I mean, I think the reality of of HR is, you know, I think people have lots of different views of FARs, what AR HR is and what you do in hr.

And I think to a certain degree. It's all true. Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean it is. And I, and that's really what I appreciate about HR in particular is that, um. It's so varied. I mean, one day you may be having a really tough employee conversation. Another day you may be coaching a leader on how you know how to deal with a particular situation.

You may be [00:07:00] doing, you know, compensation analysis where you're just in a spreadsheet and having to, you know, be focused on numbers. Um, what we do, I mean. I, I might be biased when saying this, but I feel like there's not too many jobs out, you know, like HR where the, the skillset needed to be able to do the job is.

On each side of the spectrum.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I definitely agree. I don't think I could be a, kind of like a full HR professional. Um, I think similar to your point, I feel HR actually wears many, many hats. Like you have to be like a legal counsel. You have to be therapist, definitely therapist. You have to be like a business operator.

Sometimes you have to know tag. 'cause if you handle payroll or benefits or housing insurance, oftentimes you have [00:08:00] interact with all kinds of technology and tools these days. Yeah. Um, so yeah, HR wears so many hats and I mean, at times I feel. Like a lot of the work HR does does is, um, caretaking.

Claire Malmstrom: It is caretaking.

Zhou Fang: A lot of caretaking. Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, so, which I think it's a good place for us to start talking about, um, you know, the things both of us are very passionate about is, you know, as. People and culture professionals. This covers like more than hr, right? Yeah. Like it can be team development, it can be learning or continuous learning, it could be leadership, et cetera, et cetera.

Um, we are very passionate about what we do or we care about what we do and we take care of people. And what happens oftentimes is. We don't take care of ourselves. Yeah. So we just keep [00:09:00] doing it. Like, you know this as a fractional HR expert and myself as independent practitioner, we, we have a lot of autonomy in our work.

Yeah. So we get to decide when to take a break or not at all.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Like I just have to keep pushing, keep pushing. Um, and we all know that doesn't work. So I'm curious, you know, seeing you coming from the corporate side and now to independent side, should you have seen things from both sides? And I know you.

Really care about, um, self-care. Yeah. And qualitative of life and boundary setting. So how has that been, um, you know, the practice for you taking care of yourself, especially since you became like independent consultant?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. [00:10:00] Well I think it's a journey and, um. I think like life. I mean, the point isn't about reaching a destination or saying, oh, I, I fixed it.

I've, I've solved the problem, and now I have all these boundaries. And I, what I will say is that, and what I'm noticing is that it's an, it's certainly an evolution that just requires constant attention and observation and self-reflection. And asking yourself, what, what do I need, uh, to be my best self or the best self that I can be, um, in this moment, in this week, in this day.

And I know when I was in-house, um, I was, by the time I left full-time employment, I was incredibly burnt out. Hmm. Like, I just, I mean, I look back at that time and, um. I mean, I, there's, it's just I was burnt out and I was working a lot and I felt like I, at the time, what I needed [00:11:00] was, um, some identities and some pursuits outside of work.

Like I felt like work was my identity that came first. That is, you know, who I am. That's how I introduce myself to people. And like there was a lot of pride in that too. I mean, I think there was a lot of, yeah. Um. I mean, that's a complicated thing to, to kind of grapple with because there's a lot of good and like positive feelings that come from that out of your success and like what you've, you've earned or worked towards in a certain place.

But I, I think at that time, I. I sort of thought about, I thought about the future and I'm like, is this all that it is? Like what happens when I'm not this anymore? And who am I? And you know, how do I spend my time? And for me, during that period when I left, there was a very intentional effort, one to, I mean, I will say the broad spectrum of rest.

I think for me it was just. You know, really being able to have [00:12:00] some time to step away from, from work and the, the grind of, yeah. Being at work from, you know, 8, 9, 10 hours a day. Um, and. So rest from that. But then the rest, and as far as really being able to build some of my own interests and identities and who am I outside of work?

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: So I did a lot of traveling. I started taking language lessons. I'm currently learning very, uh, slowly how to speak, finish, uh, which I don't, I mean, you know, why did I choose like one of the hardest languages there? But, you know, I'm always up for a challenge I guess. But, so, you know, and also I. Felt like it was really important to develop.

More community related relationships. I think I, of course, I'm very close with my family and with my partner and I have great relationships in there, but it was, I really wanted to develop relationship, more relationships outside of that and relationships that really don't center around [00:13:00] work. So that was, that was really my focus at that time, and I feel like I, I've done a really good job of that.

I've taken lots of art classes and I feel like I've developed. A life right now where. Work is very important to me and, um, it's still my identity and I feel very proud of that identity.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: But it, you take that away and that's not all who I am. Mm-hmm. Like, that's, that's not, that's not like, oh, now there's no sense of self.

I feel like.

Zhou Fang: Right.

Claire Malmstrom: I have achieved that as far as developing that sense of self and who I am outside of work and I, and so now that self-care has evolved slightly as, as, um. A consultant in that and, um, how does care, self-care and boundaries, and you spoke to this too, where it's like you could either take all the time off the, all the, all the time off that you want or you can take no time.

Right. And. [00:14:00] I, right now I'm in a place where I feel like I've had a good, I'm pretty busy in my work and have a good, you know, a really good amount of success and feel very proud of it, but

Zhou Fang: Awesome.

Claire Malmstrom: Um, and, and there's a little bit of that like fear where it's like if I, you know, say no to things. Mm. Will it be there when I come back?

Zhou Fang: Hmm. Scarcity mindset. Yeah,

Claire Malmstrom: scarcity mindset. So, um, so I've been really, that's, that's, that's my challenge right now is, mm, and actually, um, so, uh, I, each year I try to keep, think of a theme for the year. And for 2026, my theme is sustainable abundance. And so that's just been very much on my mind lately as far as.

That abundant mindset. How do I have this abundance in my life? How do I say yes to the things that really bring me, fill my bucket and bring me joy and feel confident in saying no to the things that [00:15:00] drain me. Don't bring me joy. Right. And knowing will be enough.

Zhou Fang: Wow. Uh, that I love it. Sustainable abundance.

Yeah. I think I need to remember that phase, uh, phrase. Yeah. Um. Thank you. I think that's, uh, like a wonderful self discovery journey as well. Yeah. And, um, so from when you started to intentionally making an effort to rest mm-hmm. And it, it, it doesn't mean you are laying around, you are actually doing things and doing hobbies.

Such a, when did you start doing that?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. I mean it really was when I left full-time.

Zhou Fang: Gotcha.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Like a couple years ago.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. So it was, uh, it was August of 2024. Mm-hmm. So I left full-time employment, um, and. You know that that's really where it was like, okay, these I'm, I'm gonna [00:16:00] pursue, I'm gonna at, at the time I was, I've been taking Finn lessons through Duolingo for a while, but I'm like, Nope, I want, I wanna get that tutor that I've been talking about.

I'm gonna actually Yeah. Like be a little bit more serious about it and. Um, you know, I traveled a lot, which mm-hmm. Was amazing, amazing. I reconnected with, with friends who, you know, I haven't had that opportunity to. I've made new friends, so it's just been, yeah, that, that really was the turning point.

Zhou Fang: I feel you should offer like a class,

Claire Malmstrom: like, maybe, maybe what not to do, but Yeah.

Yeah. I mean,

Zhou Fang: um, yeah. 'cause it's really wonderful because I, um. You know, I, I work with clients one-on-one, on setting boundaries and, um, just not get burnt out. And also don't blame ourselves for taking time off. A lot of us, especially women and women, with a lot of like, ambition and very motivated to do things right.

Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: When we

Zhou Fang: rest or when we are [00:17:00] not doing work. Um. We feel bad. Yeah. And a, a lot of us are still trapped in that kind of like, oh, if I don't do this, then something bad is gonna happen. Yeah. And then you blame yourself. It's like, see, like I told you that was an opportunity and you let it go. Yeah. Like there's a lot of like internalized, like self criticism going on, and I feel like you.

You are such a great example, like how not to be like that because I asked you like, when did you start doing it and you said 2024. So I really wanna say two years, right? Like now it's March 20, 26, like two years is not a short time. At the same time it's not that long. It's entirely doable. Like it does take effort and attention and intentionality.

Yeah. At the beginning it might sound [00:18:00] really like, no, impossible. Like I can't ever do that. But you know, its very doable.

Claire Malmstrom: It's very doable and it doesn't have to be, you know, it can be little stuff. Things too. It doesn't have to be, for me, it was, you know, I had a, a lot of things. Align at the time to allow me to make the change, the larger change as far as, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, not be full-time.

I'm gonna give this consultant, uh, thing a go. And, and there was a lot of, um, you know, things that aligned in the moment to allow me to do that. And I think about that too. So I think about what if that hadn't happened and what if I stayed in in-house and there may be a time. That I have to go back to in-house or I have to do something and do something different and pivot.

And so, um, what does that self-care look like? So I don't get back to that. If I have to do that, what, what things am I gonna have in place to prevent getting back to the [00:19:00] place where I'm just so burnt out that basically mm-hmm. I'm a, I'm a shell of, of who I am or my, you know, don't really have a strong sense of my identity or not showing up in my, in the best way possible.

I think, and that's the journey part of it. I don't have it figured out. Like it takes daily work. Yeah. Weekly work. I mean, it's, it's co time constantly something on, on my mind and thinking about it and trying to ask those questions and, and I get it wrong. Like I still get it wrong. Like I still say yes to things that I probably shouldn't say yes to.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, or overcommit myself in a way that doesn't feel good, and then I have to kind of unwind or figure that out and so,

Zhou Fang: mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: I, and I think it'll always be that way. I mean, I think,

Zhou Fang: yeah,

Claire Malmstrom: there's such this idea that like you, you're achieving the state. Like, oh, I've made it, I'm not burned out anymore and I will never be burned out anymore.

And I've figured it all out. But it really is kind of constantly monitoring and questioning what, what's, what do I [00:20:00] want? What do I need less of? What do I need more of? And and it evolves and it changes.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I mean, that's another good point too, is we always imagine if I become happy, I'll be happy forever.

Yeah. Right? Like if I feel chill, I'll feel chill. No, that's just, that's just not true. We're humans. Yeah. And things change all the time. And what we really need to. Maybe learn how to do better is how do we adjust, how do we adjust to life? Um, you know, just a little bit more flexible and just be a little bit more open-minded and be curious.

And if this doesn't work out, that's not the end of the world, we can perhaps figure something else out. And there's never a guarantee like this thing is going to work, but if we don't try, yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: Right. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, we're both old enough to know, like probably who we [00:21:00] were, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago is not the same.

Like you wouldn't want to stay the same, you wouldn't want the same thing to work. And so just really embracing that, that evolution as, as you learn more and experience more and grow and. And really embracing that change.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. No, I hear you. Like now, like I'm recalling when I was like, when I just turned 30 or in my early thirties, I was, you know, I was very glad to turn 30.

For me, that was a milestone. Yeah. Um, at the same time, I feel I was still like so young that I was uncomfortable with myself.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah,

Zhou Fang: like I still were like very much like, oh, now you're 30, and what do you do now? And do you have to act like very adult or like, are you still allowed to be, you know, your true self?

So I definitely struggled in my early thirties and now I'm in my late thirties. [00:22:00] I feel definitely more comfortable in my skin and yeah, if I want to be silly, I can be silly. Yeah. So to your point, yeah, we are, we're different people now.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. I, I think, isn't that the, the most wonderful thing about aging is just like, you just get better, like Yeah.

Your early thirties or whatever, like. People. The, the great thing about your thirties is like, I think people start taking you seriously.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: I mean, they expect you to have a little bit more experience, but you still are just like, you're always evolving and developing and mm-hmm. And then there becomes an ease with that.

Like you just could, yeah. You can look back and reflect and think like, yeah, I have grown and I've changed and I've been, and things have evolved and I pivoted and I figured it out and. I think that's just the really amazing thing about getting older is just,

Zhou Fang: I think

Claire Malmstrom: so that being comfortable, more comfortable in your skin.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it's, it, it, I mean, [00:23:00] to people who are younger who might be listening to this, you know, it's gonna be okay. Like maybe you feel awkward right now, or maybe now you just feel like very self-conscious, but at some point you're just like, I'm great.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah,

Zhou Fang: I'm fine.

Claire Malmstrom: It'll be okay. It'll be okay.

I love, I love that. And I mean. Yeah, I had such anxiety as when I was graduating college, my undergrad degree, I remember being in some counselor's office and just like so scared about what I was gonna be and like making the wrong decision. Or like, if I make this choice, it's gonna have this impact. It's gonna affect the rest of my life.

Um. The, the counselor at the time was just kind of like, yeah, it's not that serious. It's not that deep. And mm-hmm. They were right. Like, you can always change, you can always pivot and Yeah, you could. Yeah. You made a wrong decision. Well, guess what? It's not forever. You can change.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. And that's the only way we learn is [00:24:00] through Yeah.

You know, mistakes and learnings and lessons. Yeah. Um, I love that. And um, so I guess, you know, as we get older. Um, you mentioned that earlier, and I wanted to chat a little bit more about this is, you know. Um, before we were able to kind of center our own wellbeing and more be, be more compassionate about self or maybe it's just fear of missing out.

I don't know. We will say yes to a lot of things and then we will regret and now we feel a little bit more comfortable about saying no. Um. So when you, so this is maybe like a real life practice. Maybe share with me when you do feel like, I don't want to do this, I'm gonna say no to this, what's your thought process?

Like, how do you, maybe not convince yourself, but just like, it's fine, I don't have to do this and then be okay [00:25:00] with it.

Claire Malmstrom: That's a really great question, and I think it looks. Different in different scenarios.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: And I will think, um, one thing I say yes, and a lot of times when I say yes, it's because I do truly want to do it.

I do, maybe it's fomo, I don't know what you wanna call it, but it's like, I am genuinely excited about like, yeah, that sounds really interesting, or, yeah, I wanna experience that. And, and then in the moment, kind of when it, it comes up, uh, upon me, I, I think. That's where it's more difficult. Mm-hmm. Um, to kind of suss out and I'll, I'll give you an example.

There was, there was a, a couple of weeks where, you know, I had, my calendar was pretty full and I was really busy and I was feeling very stressed out about it. Mm. Very stressed out, like, and like, how am I gonna get all this done? Should I try to power [00:26:00] through? What should I do? And I actually had a moment where it's like, no, okay, I'm gonna sit down.

I'm gonna look at my calendar and I'm gonna start removing the things that I don't need to do that I don't want to do. And I really started looking at that. It's like, what? What can I take out of here? Like I don't wanna feel like this. I'm feeling like this in the moment. Okay, I overcommitted myself and I probably shouldn't have, but what am I gonna do about it now?

And so I did. I went through my calendar and I. I canceled some things I said, you know, said, sorry, I can't do this, or let's reschedule to another week, or whatever. And I didn't feel bad about it. And I felt better. I mean, it was like, okay, like now I'm, now I'm less stressed and now I can really give more attention to, um, you know, what I wanna do or like what I need to do, uh, this week and be better at it rather than just trying to, um.

You know, push through and give it my half because I'm stressed out and I have too much to do and try to figure out how to get it all done. So I think that's how it shows [00:27:00] up for me a lot. Mm-hmm. Is just being okay. Maybe you were, uh, being, uh, you know, over, uh, you, you overcommitted yourself

Zhou Fang: mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Because you did wanna do these things. Mm-hmm. And in the moment now you don't. So what are you gonna do to, to. Take that pressure off yourself now. Right. So you can be your best self.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Um, and I think the other thing too that I have to realize is that I, I'm an introvert. Mm-hmm. And I have to be very aware of my social battery too.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: And, um, and I, I sometimes. Will want to do something. And I then part, you know, particularly I will say, I think this is very common among, amongst people, but um, me showing up to a group setting where I really don't know anyone and having to like, introduce myself and I, and mingle and all of that, mingle with strangers, can I do it?

I can absolutely do it and do it. Okay. It takes a lot out of me.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: And so, um, sometimes I have [00:28:00] to. Really sit there and saying, why don't I wanna do this? Am I not wanting to do this because I overcommitted myself? Or maybe I said yes to something that doesn't feel, feel right now, and it's okay to, um, you know, decline that.

Mm-hmm. Or is there fear? Is there fear in going to this situation and really trying to examine that and say. What's my motivation like?

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: I said yes to this. I wanted to do this at some point. Now I don't why?

Zhou Fang: Hmm. I love that. I think asking why is always a good idea.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. We don't do enough.

Again, that's curiosity, right? Like, I feel bad about this or, Hmm. This is not sitting well with me. Why?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: And I think it's okay to be like, yeah, I am. Afraid and I'm stressed out. I mean, that it's, it's such a complicated, or can be a very nuanced decision, [00:29:00] but I think, yeah, it really is. Just asking that why.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. I really appreciate that. Um, I mean, curiosity is such a. It's, it's a, it doesn't come, we don't come by curiosity that easily these days.

Claire Malmstrom: No.

Zhou Fang: Um, and I, I feel have that curiosity with ourselves and the patience, you know, instead of like, oh, why can't you just do this? Oh, why can't you not just do that?

It's like being patient with ourselves and be curious with like, huh, why do I feel this way? I think that's really powerful. Um, I had a thought earlier, but, uh oh, actually, yeah, it just came back to me. Um, okay, so we are friends on Duolingo.

Claire Malmstrom: Yes. You, I just saw today you have a 450 day friend. Friend streak.

That's amazing. Yay. Yeah,

Zhou Fang: but you have more than me. [00:30:00]

Claire Malmstrom: Well, yes, but,

Zhou Fang: and you have a tutor help you, uh, learn, uh, the. Finish, wait.

Claire Malmstrom: Mm-hmm. Finish,

Zhou Fang: finish, finish language. Um. And I know you are going back to Finland later mm-hmm. This year with a partner.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: And we know, you know, Finland and a lot of Nordic countries, they have been on the top kind of happiest country

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: For the last decades or so. And I didn't say it, it is, uh, from research is from, uh, Gallup. Yeah. Gallup. Um, so this year, Finland, once again is top one. The most happy country in the world. Yeah. And it's not just about, oh, I have a piece of cake, I'm happy. Yeah. But it's about contentment. Like, are you content?

Do you feel fulfilled? Do you feel supported? Do you feel cared for? And do you feel loved? Yeah, you feel you have resources if you need all [00:31:00] those kind of things. And Finland is ranked like number one in the world, and I know you are very drawn to the country and the culture, of course, the language, and you are going back, so talking with you and chatting with you about your.

Very intentional work on setting boundaries and taking care of yourself and not get burnt out by life. I feel there's a connection there.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Like can you share more?

Claire Malmstrom: Hmm.

Yeah. I, I think it, I, yes, I, I agree with all of what you say, and. I think it's interesting about, you know, this idea of the finish or, you know, any of the Scandinavian countries kind of being at the top of the happiness list. And I think you touched on this a little bit where you know that that doesn't mean they're like just, [00:32:00] you know, walking around and like, you know, throwing confetti in the air and like being, you know, super enthusiastic and happy all the time.

But there is, it is more about that contentment and being content and satisfied with. Where you are in life. And, um, this might sound a little bit negative, but it's almost like, you know, not, not expecting too much.

Zhou Fang: Right.

Claire Malmstrom: And, but I think that's, that's kind of contentment and, you know, just being, being satisfied what you have and being grateful for what you have.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Um,

Claire Malmstrom: and so, yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's part of it is, um, you know, just surrounding myself with. With things that I enjoy and being content with that. And, um,

and, and, you know, it's okay. It's okay. Mm-hmm. Like, it'll be, it'll be okay. And I think there's such, you know, in, [00:33:00] in American culture, it tends to be like being the best or achieving more or mm-hmm. You know, having more and all of that. And it really is. Kind of that slowing down mm-hmm. And a community and being content with what you have.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I love that. Um, to a point, the American culture, at least the mainstream American culture is, you know, be faster, be stronger, work harder, be more ambitious, achieve more. Um, they all sound very like hard, like e even harsh.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, it's like, oh, you think you will run fast? Well, now I want to run even faster.

Yeah. Um, then, but there's nothing wrong with just walking, right?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: We can, like, if you wanna walk, we can walk through with ease as well. What's wrong with that?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah, that, [00:34:00] that is a really interesting point and I've been thinking a lot about that recently, particularly with, with art. And, um, that's one of the hobbies I've been taking up.

I've, I've taken, uh, I'm on my second drawing class. Um, I've taken a couple watercolor classes and, and, um. I think any with art for me. But anytime that you someone, and a lot of times in American culture when someone does something new, there's this expectation like, oh, I'm gonna be the best at it, or I'm gonna, mm-hmm.

I'm doing this to get good at it. And, and I've been really pondering that question, like, what does getting good at something mean?

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: So, you know, in my art classes, I am probably. I don't know. I don't even really know what this means when I said this, but I'm not the best artist. I'm not, you know, the person in the class when we share work that they're like, wow, you did such a good job at that.

Or you're, you know what, I don't even know what that, I mean, like, how do you even quantify that or [00:35:00] objectify that and. You know, when you think about like learning something or mastering it, I, at least in my mind, I'm like, okay, well I'm gonna, I'm gonna get good at this. I'm gonna be the best and people are gonna admire that.

Or I can show this with people, or you know, there's some sort of like, for me at least, external accolades behind that. Or external recognition of, yes, you've achieved that, you've hit this certain level. And what's been really interesting in this exploration and what I've been, you know, I'm, I'm in the middle of an art class right now, and it's just like.

I don't have to show anyone. I don't. This is, this is for me and it's for me. The, the idea of being good at this is that it's challenging and I'm learning new things. So does that mean that, yes, I'm gonna improve over time, or my art, you know, I'm gonna be better at. You know, technically better in some way.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Sure. Like, but I think that's [00:36:00] sort of the natural outcome. But really being good at it is the idea that I'm spending time doing it, that I'm challenging myself, that I'm learning a new skill that, you know, that's, it's a form of meditation or relaxation or rest that I'm engaging in.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: And the identity.

So, you know, getting good at it is so much more than just like, oh, now. I can draw a picture, I can draw a dog and I can show someone and they say, wow, that's really good.

Zhou Fang: Yeah,

Claire Malmstrom: and I think, and I, maybe it's the people I'm around and maybe not everyone else is there, but I think there's this kind of natural inclination where it's like you're doing something for, you know, a result or some sort of like external validation or accolades or money or success or whatever, when really what I've been trying to focus on is, let me do this for the sake of doing this and the benefits that.

The act of doing it actually.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's the experience, not the outcome.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. The [00:37:00] experience.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really appreciate that. That reminds me of, you know, a lot of, especially, uh, women athletes these days talk about mental health, taking care of yourself. Right? Like, I, I could name a few maybe, uh, Simone Bios and, and, um.

There was another, I think Eileen, wait, sorry. No, Elisa, Leo, or I might be saying her last name wrong. Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: Alyssa. Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. The um, yeah, the ice skater. The Olympians, the ice skater. Ice skate.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: So these young women, they are like, I want to do it for my own joy. Yeah. I remember Elisa laid out some conditions for her to come out of retirement.

Mm-hmm. It's wild to, to think. Uh. A young woman in their teens are like, I, I'm retired. Um, but her conditions, a few of them are, you know, for her to come out of retirement is I pick my own music.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. [00:38:00]

Zhou Fang: I design my own dance. My dad can interfere. Yeah. And, um, there's a couple, oh, I do this for my own joy. Like I have to enjoy this.

Oh. And also do not limit my diet. I don't wanna be hungry.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: And that those were her conditions. I'm like,

Claire Malmstrom: yeah,

Zhou Fang: yeah. You're not doing this to get better or to wing or something. Yeah. You're just doing this for yourself and that's amazing. Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: It is really incredible and, and it's in, it's, it's very curious in our culture and it speaks to our culture where I, I, I haven't really followed Alyssa Leo, um, very closely, but, you know, Simone Biles in stepping away from the Olympics, like it, I mean, there was a lot of criticism towards that, or Naomi Osaka where, you know, she withdrew from competitions.

Like, yeah. That is a very hard thing for American culture to accept.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: That like what you're the best. [00:39:00] And you're not

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: Trying to get better. Yeah. Or prove that you're the best or prove X, Y, and Z. It's like, no. They're like, they're redefining what success looks like for them.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: And I think that's incredible and I wish

Zhou Fang: it's

Claire Malmstrom: like that's maybe the age thing where it's like you can kind of come to this, you know, place of experience where it's like, yeah, success doesn't mean that you're the best or that you earn the most money, or you have the fanciest title or biggest pass or whatever.

Like none of those, that's fine if you want. I'm like, why

Zhou Fang: doesn't matter.

Claire Malmstrom: Great. But just the ability to redefine what success. Looks like for people is incredible.

Zhou Fang: I love that. And I really would love, like just to invite people to, uh, maybe read stories like that. It's like,

Claire Malmstrom: yeah,

Zhou Fang: we, of course we don't need permission to.

Take care of ourselves. 'cause that's a Right, right. Yeah. Like we have the right to take care of ourselves at the same time in our [00:40:00] culture, it just, it's just so hard. So if you feel like you need a little bit of encouragement or permission, quote unquote, um, maybe, you know, look for some stories that are like how people take care of themselves.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: And perhaps if you have the capacity, take care of each other as well.

Claire Malmstrom: For sure.

Zhou Fang: Right. So I, I think that's wonderful. And, um, and you're going back to Finland in the summer?

Claire Malmstrom: Well, I have never been to Finland.

Zhou Fang: Wait, how Wait, wait, wait. What?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. Um, I've been to Iceland. I've been to Iceland, uh, again, the Scandinavian culture.

So, um, and when I was in undergraduate school, I studied abroad in Iceland for a semester.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Claire Malmstrom: Um, and then more recently I've taken several trips back to Iceland, uh, which I, and I do. Uh, Iceland is one of the most special places in. My life, [00:41:00] uh, and love it. And, um, yeah, but so Fin Finland, um, it is up there and I've been very curious about Finnish culture and, uh, for the Finnish people and obviously the Finnish language.

So, uh, this is, this is really on my, um, my bucket list to go to, to Finland. So we're doing it.

Zhou Fang: So in your kind of, uh, understanding, so help maybe myself and listeners understand for like Scandinavian cultures and for Nordic countries, what are the kind of like cultural significance when it comes to happiness and content contentment?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wanna speak for Scandinavian culture necessarily, um, because, you know, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not an expert on, um, you know, those countries or mm-hmm. You know, their culture necessarily. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've been on a handful of vacations to, [00:42:00] you know, some of the different countries.

Never been to Finland, of course.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Um, but I just feel like when I, particularly when I've been to Iceland, there's just an EI call it an ease. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just pretty direct, pretty matter of fact. Um. And like authentic, like they're just the people that I've interacted when I've gone to this countries, like they're just, there's a real authenticity.

And their communication that I really appreciate.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Uh, now I'm just really curious. I think, I mean, they're on my list too. I would love to visit Iceland, another friend of mine. Mm-hmm. She also goes back to Iceland. It just, yeah. It just joss her back over and over.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, so when you say real ease and authenticity and the way they communicate, um, it kind of reminds me of my, uh, friend from the Netherlands.

Mm-hmm. They're very direct. Yes. And, but it [00:43:00] makes it easier to talk like, 'cause you can express yourself a little bit more freely.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. Well, there's just not this, I mean, I don't, I don't know if this is the right word, but it's like a lack of judgment. Like there's a kind of just an acceptance of, you know, people being who they are and showing up as they are.

It was really interesting. So, um, my, my sister had a, a milestone birthday, um, last October, and so she and I took a trip to Iceland together, which was the last time we, we went and, um, we went to a concert. So, uh, we went to a symphony concert. And, um, it was such an interesting experience because it wasn't very touristy.

It was, you know, a lot of locals there. It was pretty small and intimate, and they had, um. Performers come out and it was so, it's so different compared to American culture. Like it maybe, I think to most Americans would seem pretty like a lack of emotion or maybe austere [00:44:00] in like how they reacted. But you would have these performers come out, they would just sit at the instrument they played, and then they would stand up.

There would be some clapping and they would leave, and then the next performer would come out.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Compared to, I think sometimes when I go to like performances or shows in the United States, there's just tons of clapping and whooping and hollering and

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: And like, you know, kind of almost there's this interaction with the audience and like the performers and.

I don't know. I found that just so like, kind of simple in, in, in when in this performance in Iceland, and again, this is one, maybe this was unique or whatever, but it was just like, it was so simple and just appreciative and it was about like, you just, I felt like there was like a, there was still a connection between the audience, but it was just simple, direct, kind of as you are [00:45:00] like,

Zhou Fang: Hmm, hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: It was interesting. I like, I just, it really resonated with me because, um, I don't know, sometimes when I go to concerts in the us, the, the, the hooping and the hollering and, you know, you have people shouting out things at like particular moments, but I, which I find distracting, throwing things and it's like.

And it's almost like this parasocial relationship that the audience is like members of the audience are having with the performer on stage that everyone else is witnessing and stuff like that. And so, yeah, it just felt, it felt very respectful and kind of like simple and just like, yep, like not a whole lot of grandstanding.

And we're like, I'm performing this piece and this is what it means. It was like, yeah, you. You performed the piece. We enjoyed it. We're clapping and yeah, we're moving on with her life, and I loved it.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, no, I, I would love to go to a concert, um, in Iceland or Finland at some point. Yeah, because I, I do agree.

I feel, you know, most concerts in our lives these days, they are very, like, they're very [00:46:00] high energy and, um, at times interactive. Um, you know, I, I definitely have been to concerts where you were not supposed to clap or whistle or shout. Yeah, because the, because it interrupts the performance. Now, now the performer, they have to stop and wait for you to finish and then continue it, like it interrupts the experience.

Claire Malmstrom: I, yeah, and I mean, there's time and places like you're at a rock concert or whatever, like a, I mean

Zhou Fang: yeah. If we wasn't Lady Gaga Sure.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. Like, that's, that's not what we're talking about. And like a, a symphony or, you know, a performance where it's like, you know, let them perform and like, they don't, they don't need someone hoot and hollering and, you know, or shouting or whistling in the audience, um, while they're performing.

Yeah. And, and it's like, it's not really respectful to, I mean, it's, it's the very like American kind of way of being like, this is all about me.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Claire Malmstrom: And [00:47:00] attention and like, I'm gonna make this about me in this moment.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, totally. Like even, even though I know I am going to see the concert, but I want to feel like I am performing as well.

So look at me.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Zhou Fang: I know not all counselor goers, so just to make it clear, yes, most people are pretty good, but there are always some people who just are like, come on, sit down.

Claire Malmstrom: Well, and in fairness, I mean, that, that's the culture too. Like that's okay. It's acceptable, and like that's, that's an accepted norm here, so it's like

Zhou Fang: mm-hmm.

Claire Malmstrom: Just, that's fine. It's not for me and I, I just really appreciated. It, it was an interesting contrast to experience that in Iceland and I actually really appreciated just, it felt very respectful.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I really appreciate the way you described it as well. It just feels very calm. Yeah, it feels very peaceful and um, so yeah.

Now I would love to go see [00:48:00] some of the Nordic world one day as well. Yes. So, as we wrap up our conversation today, and which, you know, I'm loving it because. We were not talking about work, like, Hey, hey, tell me, tell me how do we, you know, but I really appreciate you coming on and talking about, um, taking care of ourselves for real.

Not just like, let's get a cup of wine, that's fine too. Well, let's take a bath. That's fine too. Yeah. But like, really, how do you take care of yourself as a person?

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. Well, can I, can I turn the tables on you, Joe, and ask how do you, how do you take care of yourself? Like, what's important to you?

Zhou Fang: Uh, good question.

Um, so I think I, I'm pretty simple these days for me. If I have like a busy day, for example.

Claire Malmstrom: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: If I manage to like walk my dog [00:49:00] just like in between things for 10, 15 minutes. Mm-hmm. I'm happy with that. So that's on kind of like if I'm busy that day, but if I'm really talking about taking care of myself as a person, then really I go to nature.

Mm. If we, it's like a weekend hike. It doesn't even need to be long. Like one hour. Mm-hmm. Like somewhere near Portland. I'm happy if you are going to see a waterfall even better. And we're talking about going on the, going to the coast, the in the spring. So I think that's how I take care of myself these days.

And I do yoga regularly. Nice. And again, to your point, I'm not doing it to get better at it. Yeah. I'm not good at it. Really not good at it,

Claire Malmstrom: but you are good at it because you're doing it,

Zhou Fang: but I'm doing it. Yeah. So I feel happy about that. So I do yoga and I also think some kind of, um, what's the word? Uh.

[00:50:00] Rhythm. Some kind of a rhythm or something. Kind of like, you know, when kids growing up, they don't, they don't like interruption. They want to do things like, okay, this is breakfast. Oh, this is lunch, this is dinner. Like some kind of like rhythm. I think that's like good for me. So yeah, I have like Tuesday I'm doing this and that's kind of like, uh, well Friday I'm doing this and I know this is gonna happen.

So that gives me a sense of kind of like safety, because that's something I can count on. Mm-hmm. And it's not work related. It's. It's, it's, uh, it's activity that I enjoy. So that's also the kind of rest I like and self care, I think. Um, yeah, so those, and also spend time with people I really care about.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, so yeah, and of course travel like, like you as well, and traveling really, you know, it really takes care [00:51:00] of my spirit when I travel, I feel.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah. I really admire. How you set boundaries, and it's often inspiring to me. What I notice when we interact, and I know you take periods of rest too, like during the holiday season, you had an out of office, um, message where it's like, this is my slow season.

Or you had some really just nice language about it where it's like, yeah, it's gonna, you're, you're holding that boundary, you're setting expectations and kind of letting people know what to expect. Mm-hmm. And it's like, yeah. And it's fine. I mean, like. I, I really, I really appreciate that. Like that's an inspiration for me because I think that's where I struggle with a lot is being able to feel like it's okay to, um.

Which I, and I'm getting better at, but it's feel, feeling like it's okay to say, this is what I need and this is what you can expect from it.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, definitely. Thank you for saying that. It's also a continuous practice, like you and I know. Yeah. Like I'm, I make mistakes and sometimes I feel like, oh yeah, you really didn't have to do [00:52:00] that, but you did it.

You know, like, next time do better. Um, so yeah, definitely it's a continuous learning. In terms of like self care and setting boundaries and actually practice it. Yeah. It's like you can set a boundary and never do it. Yeah. Like you can break it over and over, then it doesn't exist anymore.

Claire Malmstrom: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, so since we're not like talking strictly about work, and I will still like for people if they want to get in touch with you and chat about work life boundaries.

Yeah. And self-care and burnout. Where do people find you?

Claire Malmstrom: Oh wow. Well that's really interesting. I'm really not on social media a lot. Mm-hmm. I think for me that's a good boundary is that it's great. It's too much. It's too much. But you can find me at my website. So you can go to malmstrom hr uh.com, um, or you can email me.

So that's [00:53:00] claire@uhmalmstromhr.com as well. I, I would, and I love to talk about this stuff, I love to talk about boundaries and learn from others and see what others are doing. Or kind of brainstorm like, okay, like, this didn't work. Maybe can I try something else? 'cause it's, like I said, it's a journey and you're, you're evolving and therefore your strategies are gonna evolve too.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I love the evolving part of, you know, our boundary in practice and self-care practice. It's just, it's not always the same. And um, we have to be okay with that. Um, so with that, thank you so much, Claire.

Claire Malmstrom: Oh, thank you Joe. It's been great.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I'm going to stop recording here.