" It's Good For The Soul To Create Things", with Laura Burkhauser, on Becoming the CEO of Descript, the Relationship Between AI and Humans, Multigenerational Relationships as Joy and Abundance.

Zhou Fang: [00:00:00] All right, we're recording. And, uh, today's recording feels very special because the product I'm using, the, the app I'm using, um, is from the company my guest today is leading. So that feels kind of like kind of a full circle, but I don't know how to put it quite yet, so I'm just gonna go with it. Um, so hello everyone.

Welcome to The Intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality, intersectional identities, and intersectional journeys. And as we know, every journey... behind every journey and behind every story, there's a real human. And, uh, this is what we are here for, is to learn from those journeys and from those stories. And today I am so thrilled to welcome my guest, Laura Burkhauser, who is the CEO of Descript, which is the product we're [00:01:00] using right now to record this, uh, conversation. So it feels a little trippy, but also kind of funny, and I just anticipate a really fun conversation, and I want to, um, invite Laura to introduce herself.

Welcome, Laura.

Laura: Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yep, I'm Laura. I, uh, I am the CEO of Descript. I was not always the CEO of Descript. Why, just three and a half short years ago, I was, uh, also a customer of Descript making a podcast with it. I fell in love with the product. I reached out to the company and, and here I am, uh, now leading the company.

Zhou Fang: It's so fascinating to me, um, because I know, you know, you have always had a product management kind of journey, and before that you had German literature in your pocket. So your journey, you know, from literature to product management and now to leadership in itself is a [00:02:00] very cool story. And from, from my perspective, you know, I became interested in Descript is because, to your point, Laura, as a podcaster, I had a hard time finding the right tool for my editing, especially as someone, um, who isn't from a technology background.

Like, I have a communications background, I'm a journalist, but, like, when it comes to editing, you know, it was like, that's hard. But then I found Descript, which, you know, you can edit an audio from, a document, kind of like that. So that really kind of hooked me into the kind of product or the platform of Descript. And you went even further. You are like, "I actually wanna work there." so that's really fascinating to me. So I'm curious to learn, you know, what led you from a German literature person to [00:03:00] product management, and a lot of that is creative thinking, I imagine. And also, you also did podcast and then now leading a team that is Descript.

Can you take us back kind of down the memory lane a little bit?

Laura: Yeah, it's so interesting. You know, I think, like, we, we walk around with a lot of raw materials as, as people. Uh, and, um, and what I, I advise, uh, young people to do when they're thinking about kind of what What should my job be? What should I do with my career? Um, it is, you kind of think about it the exact same way you think about things as a CEO, where what you're trying to do is, like, you're working with a company that you have, you're trying to see where their market is going to be in three years, and you're trying to position your company to be exactly the company that the market is...

That's gonna be right smack in the center of the market in three years, right? Not five years, not 10, but like in, in about three. [00:04:00] And, um, and that's what you're doing, you know, with yourself all the time when, when you're thinking about your career. Um, and so I, I didn't know this when I was 18, of course.

When I was 18, what I knew was that I, uh, really enjoyed, um, reading. Uh, and I was in college wondering what I should major in, and I thought, like, probably literature because I enjoy reading so much and, and talking about books. Uh, little did I know how much of grad school is, like, not so much reading books and talking about them, but reading very, very dry essays that other people have written about books.

Um,

Zhou Fang: Yep.

Laura: is much less interesting. I found that out later. Um, but I think that, uh, when I went into product management, uh, I had at that point, you know, sort of given up the ghost, uh, of becoming a, an, an academic, uh, of b- becoming a German literature professor. Uh, it's a very, very competitive, uh, [00:05:00] field, and the prize isn't that great, and the work I didn't enjoy.

So I, I was able to figure that out by maybe, like, one year after college. I, I studied, I was doing a Fulbright in Berlin, uh, my favorite city in the world. Uh, and I learned, uh, I learned a lot of things that year, including that I absolutely should not try to get a PhD in German literature. So I am so grateful, uh, for that, for that time in my life.

But you know, people look at the job market right now, and they're like, "It's, it's tough for new grads." And I'm like, "Okay, well, I came back to the United States in 2009," uh, which they don't even include in any of the charts that show you how tough it is for young grads today because it just shows you it's not that tough for young grads these days.

Sorry, if you're, if you're looking for a job, I don't wanna, I don't wanna diminish that. But it was a, that was a rough, a rough moment to be looking for a job as a German literature major. Um, and I ended up, I had done a lot of work just, like, [00:06:00] volunteering at schools, cared a lot about education. And so at first, the first job I found myself in was working in the back office of Teach For America doing district strategy, helping core members get, um, get placed in schools, meeting with principals.

It was a combination of, like, partnerships and expansion strategy. Um, and I don't know how I got that job. I don't know why they gave it to me Uh, but they did, and I, and I did all right at it, and that led me to management consulting more generally as a, as a career. And I was okay at that. I think thinking strategically, that's where I say, like, I started to bank, like, "Okay, I'm good at this, I'm not good at this."

Not good at event planning. Do not put me on an event. Not good at walking into a room full of strangers and making all of those people my best friend through just, like, sheer, uh, force of will and charisma and, like, extraordinary extroversion. Also not the thing that you're gonna hire me to do. Strategic thinking, I was pretty good at.

Uh, [00:07:00] just, like, operating, working to get something from zero to one for the first time, like building either a process or a product for the first time, good. Hitting my numbers, good. Working in ambiguity, good. And so you start to kind of build this, like, assets column for yourself. Like, "Oh, I seem to be pretty good at this," and this sort of like, "May wanna stay rocky, rocky waters here.

Uh, should probably stay away from jobs that are like this." And in management consulting, I was pretty good, um, but I-- it felt very abstract to me, very theoretical, which is a common problem people have with management consulting. I just didn't feel very connected to the work, until I did an internal project where we were building this online learning, uh, kind of product to help us expand our digital footprint, and then I, like, loved it.

I was r- I, I loved it. I, I built something really scrappily. I, like, tested it. I iterated on it. I made it better, and it ended up being the [00:08:00] fastest-growing part of our business and, and continues to be, like, a really important part of, of that company's expansion strategy. Um, so I was so proud of the work that I did there.

A little bit too proud, because I quit and was like, "I wanna do this thing," like building stuff on the internet forever, I think.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: that's called. That's, that's my terminal position is, like, internet thing builder. Um, and I found out that at the time, uh, someone with my skills, someone who's more strategic, closer to the customer, closer to the business, but with, with an ability to, to really build, right, uh, is called a product manager.

And so then I spent the next decade of my career in various forms of product management, and I think, you know, you kinda just keep nudging into the stuff that you love, uh, once, once you find a role that, like, you're, you're... that you love. And product management was probably the first time I, like, loved a job.

I wasn't just, like, saying, "Okay, there are things I like about it, or there are things I don't. The good outweighs the bad, but what's my next [00:09:00] move?" Once I was in product management, I was like, "This is it for me." Like, I, I love this job. I love working with engineers. I love working with designers. I love building things that haven't existed before.

I love hearing from customers and solving their problems. I love the service aspect of it as well as the strategy aspect. Um- And so I just kinda kept, you know, nosing my way deeper into it. Um, and there were definitely points where I was like, "Oh, this is different." So when I, when I became a director for the first time, I was like, "Oh, okay, this is different.

I'm not working as directly with engineers and designers. I'm farther away from the build. My impact is bigger, but my direct service line is smaller." That was a tough kind of moment in my career. And now I'm at... And, and after I made it through that, I, I made it through that and, and eventually became, like, a, a very [00:10:00] high impact director, um, and loved it.

Uh, was quite good at it and loved it. Found, found out where I fit into it, found out how to be good at it. Um, and now I find myself at another one of those moments in my career where, where last August I went from being the v- the VP of product at, at Descript to being the CEO. And it was another one of these moments where it's like, okay, what got you here isn't what's gonna make you successful in this role.

So you're gonna have to, like, you know, swim against the current for a little bit, go back into, like, learning mode of, like, these are the parts of being a CEO that I'm really great at and, like, I, I should do more of this. And these are the parts that I'm not so good at. Should I hire someone to do this for me or do I really need to level up?

And, like, I think that's what the first six to nine months of the job have been and I'm now starting to see the light through the tunnel of, like, okay, I think this is how I can be quite good at this role. But I don't think anything really prepares you for it, you know?

Zhou Fang: Mm. Yeah, I definitely resonate with that. I [00:11:00] mean, I don't have a big company the size of Descript, but going from someone as an, like, an employee of a company to, like, have, like, self, uh, uh, agency and also autonomy to operate a business, that definitely feels like... think it's growing pain. It's like you know you will get there, but the process, it's like, at times can be grueling and really soul-searching.

It's like, "What am I doing here?"

Laura: Ruling and soul searching are apt, uh, are apt, uh, adjectives, I think.

Zhou Fang: Um, so I'm, I was thrilled to see when, or to learn that when you became the CEO of Descript because in reality, as you and I know, it doesn't happen that much, right? Like, a founder gives up their seats as the leader of the company and then really name someone else that's not [00:12:00] related to them. You know?

Like, talking about, I'm talking about biological relations or, like, from family ties, et cetera. But really handpicked the successor and, um, really doesn't happen very much, and especially in tech as well. Um, so I think from that perspective, it's, I think it's to the company's, benefit that the founder, um, named you the CEO because I feel he really went through the process of evaluating, evaluating whether or not you would be the right person. So could you share a little bit about, you know, your role shifting, you know, from VP of product management and to right now you're leading the company. And specifically I'm curious about your relationship the people, like, your people because I think- Um, a company is a community. Um, [00:13:00] and we conventionally, we don't look at it that way.

It's like people go to work, people go home. But for certain companies in certain cultures, people are more invested 'cause this feels like a company. Uh, sorry, a community. 'Cause it feels like community to them. So as your community's leader, you know, what's your connections? How do you foster relationships with your people, basically?

Laura: This is a really good question, and I'm gonna give you an answer. I am in the middle of writing something about this, and I haven't-- I'm in the middle of it because I haven't totally figured out what I think here. But there's something controversial in here. If not controversial, at least, like, worth discussion, I think.

There's, like, something interesting in here. Because you're right that, um, that Descript is a community Right?

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: You're-- Who is part of that community, right? There, there are a lot of different stakeholders in this thing that is Descript. [00:14:00] There is the employees, and that's often what we think of as, as a community.

I am their boss, right? These are people who work for me. I have obligations to them. Uh, it's important for me to take those obligations seriously, and it's import- And, and one of those obligations is a culture that, uh, people wanna be part of, right? And I think Descript has this really amazing culture because it's, it's a little bit of a tech culture, but it's a creative culture, too.

A lot of the people who work at Descript, you know, they do tech during the day and they play piano at night, or they DJ at night, or they, you know, have an emerging puppet show that they're, like, working on at night, and that's one of my favorite things about working at Descript. We have another really important community, and that's our customers, and I also have a lot of obligations to that community.

Um, and sometimes what customers want and what employees want isn't the same thing, right? Yeah. Uh, and, and customers, our customers are not a monolith. We have creator customers. We have audio [00:15:00] podcasters. Uh, we have video podcasters. We have creator customers. We have a lot of media companies, like serious media companies that, that print the news with Descript, right?

And that makes me so proud. I love journalists. I think that they do some of the most important work in the world, and it makes me really proud to build a product that they use. That was when I worked at Twitter, the thing that I felt the most proud of when I worked there was, like, how much journalists used Descript to get the news out, to tell the truth at scale, and, and that's something that is really important to me.

Um, we have a lot of people on marketing teams, uh, that, that use Descript, and they use Descript to tell the stories of their companies. We have a lot of solopreneurs, like people that are starting businesses who use us as an important part of how they market and get their, their word out, and we help their businesses thrive.

I care deeply about all of these customers and the community with them. And I care about our, our investors. That's another community that as a s- that as a VP of product, I'm gonna tell you, sorry [00:16:00] investors, I thought about you zero times a year. Maybe four times a year when I was dragged to a board meeting, and then I'm like, "Oh yeah, we have investors.

Like, should I make a deck for them? Like, what do they wanna see?" Um, and as a CEO, obviously investors are, are a group, especially people who have already invested in Descript, they're, they're a group that I feel very grateful for and I feel some obligation to, right? Um, but ultimately, if I think about- what being the CEO is like and is being the CEO like being a community leader?

Is being the CEO like being the president? I've come to, like, being the CEO is like being a priest. Um, and I, I s- I went to Catholic school as a child from, from kindergarten through sixth grade, so obviously I've never been a priest, but I learned a lot about the call one feels, the vocation, and what, what the life of a, of a priest is.

And the reason why I say that it's like being a priest, and I hope I don't of- of- offend anyone, this is like, [00:17:00] uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, um, meant in kinship, is that, you know, one of the things i- that I learned is, like, Catholic priests don't marry, and the reason is that they are supposed to be married to the church, and that this concept of the church is actually, like, what, what comes first.

Obviously priests are community leaders. They have a bunch of con- constituents, but, like, ultimately there is this concept of the church that they are, that they are married to and they, that they have this obligation to. And it's not a job, it's a vocation, and a job is a fairly, uh, straightforward transaction of value, of time for money, and a vocation is a much less straightforward transaction of time for value.

Obviously money changes hands, but what is asked of you is different than what's asked of you in terms of your complete dedication than any other job. And the value that you get from it, especially at, like, a [00:18:00] venture-backed company where, like, you know, a lot of the value is sort of theoretical and in the future, uh, a lot of the value that you get from it, it has to be this weird thing that goes deeper than a simple transaction of time for money.

And so I think, like, one of the... You asked me, like, what's changed, and I think when I w- there's a, a long-winded way of then getting to this idea of, like, what's changed since I was the VP of product? When I was the VP of product, I saw myself as, like, uh... Well, I guess, like, even before that. When I was a director of product, I saw myself as, like, the leader of this team, the product team.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laura: And I think even when I was a VP, I hung onto that a little bit too long. I remember a VP of eng that I was working with said, like, "Hey Laura, I feel like you still think your team right now is the product team, and it's not. Your team is this executive team. Like, you need to, to think about the executive team as your [00:19:00] first team."

And so actually when I became the CEO I renamed the executive team first team, because I thought that was so correct, kind of that feedback that I got. But I thought about myself as being, like, a representative of this team, the product team. My job is to do right by them, by them and the customers.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: Um,

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm.

Laura: and

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Laura: the CEO, my job is not always to think about my employees and to think about, like, how do I do right by this team?

That's obviously a huge input into it, but my question is always: What is the right thing for Descript? How do I steward this company? What is the thing that I can do that is good for this thing, Descript, that is so much bigger than just the community of people that work at it? And that is really hard, because I'm a really people-oriented person, and when I walk around the Descript office and I see people, I, I want, you know, to be this amazing team leader.

But you're not just an amazing team leader when you are a CEO. You are married to the [00:20:00] company. Your obligation is to Descript, uh, the concept of Descript, and, like, it's your job to make it thrive. Um, and that... Yeah. And, and so thinking about it that way has been an interesting transition and is a lonely one.

I mean, that's like, as a priest, you can't be married to, to anyone. You're married to the church. Obviously, like, I'm married, I have kids, I have a wonderful family life, but I think that gets to this idea of the loneliness, of the solitude of the CEO role. Because ultimately, you are married to the company, not to your executive team, not to your employees, not to every single one of your customers, not to every single one of your investors, right?

You're married to the company, and that's who you gotta do right. That's who you gotta do right by.

Zhou Fang: And I think it's important to have that kind of clarification or that clarity, you know, who are you serving and what is the purpose for you to be [00:21:00] taking the role? And like you said, you know, it, al- almost sounds like you have to have a certain faith you know, uh, something that you tell yourself, right?

"I'm gonna go back to it next day," and why. So like, you know, pretty hard or at times, um, pretty deep questions.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, and you're right. The other aspect of that is the commitment. That's the other one, like, you're married to the company. The, it's a commitment.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Laura: yeah. But unlike a real marriage, it doesn't love you back. You know what I mean? It can be fulfilling.

Zhou Fang: Sometimes. Sometimes. I mean, you cannot make everyone happy. That's the

Laura: No.

Zhou Fang: And, and I think at the end of the day, is... To a degree, it comes down to also acceptance, right? How- what do you [00:22:00] accept at the end of the day? What have you done? What have you not done? What do you wish to do and yet to accomplish? Um, so one day at a time.

Laura: Yeah. That's right. I think there is, yeah. I mean, acceptance, radical acceptance is,

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Laura: that is the path to happiness though. It's the path to happiness. Uh, caveat, caveat, but we won't get into that right now.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Um, and you mentioned earlier, you know, as a CEO, what's different from before is you need to have this vision and strategic vision for the company. You mentioned what we gonna- where we gonna be in three years. Not five, not 10, but three, is cool. At the same time, we just never know, right?

There's something that's arbitrary about it, which means there's always this kind of underlying or brewing anxiety inside a leader. [00:23:00] Like, this is my goal for the company and my people in three years, and if we hit it, wonderful. If we don't, whatever happens after. How do you handle that uncertainty and u- unknowing part of your job?

Laura: Uncertainty is what makes life fun, uh, is like the first, like the first-- And, and maybe that gets to like my first tip, which is like reorient your brain. Like uncertainty doesn't need to be anxiety. Uh, uncertainty is, uh, I, I think of a lot of this stuff as a game. Uh, there, there are high stakes in the game, but ultimately it's a game.

It's not, it's not real, right? Like it's just, it's not the reason we were put on this earth. It's a game that keeps us occupied and entertained while, while we do the stuff that is the reason why we were put on this earth. Um, [00:24:00] and so anyways, it's a game, and uncertainty in your opponent's move or in the, the conditions of the game are what make the game interesting.

I'm a big fan of the game Civilization. Uh, I play Civ VI, uh, all the time, and when you first start a Civ VI game, you decide how many op-opponents do I want, uh, how hard do I want it to be, uh, how many like kind of acts of God, like floods and meteorites and stuff do I want to come down. And I always crank that stuff up because if I'm gonna play a 36-hour or a 60-hour game, like I, I want it to be fun.

I want it to be hard. I want it to be interesting. And so like I think reorienting your brain to like, yeah, it's much... It's fun to run a company in moments of uncertainty. It's fun to compete, um, in, in uncertain environments. Like that's where the joy comes from. Uh, is an important part of it. [00:25:00] I think, like, and then it's like, okay, once you, once you do that, that, then what?

Then it's like learn how to get really good at pivoting when you need to pivot, right? You need to be flexible. You need to have cat-like reflexes, um, so that you can live in this uncertain world. And you also know when, when to identify, like, fog, how, how to, like, distinguish the signal from the noise. So in AI right now, there's a lot happening, and I think some of it is really real, and then I think some of it is fog, and, and, you know, we all do our best, and, and, and that's where it's like, what are your skills?

Like, are, are you good at doing that or whatever. But kind of trying to find out, like, when will I let changes and uncertainty change the strategy versus, like, when is the right thing for me to do, put on these colorful headphones, turn on some music, and, like, close out of social media because that's, that's not real.

Zhou Fang: [00:26:00] Oh, man, I feel that's another conversation, but, uh, we probably shouldn't derail. Um, um, you mentioned fogging AI, which I actually have never heard that before. I heard of like, you know, flip or like hallucination or fog. To me, it sounds more like a noise in the industry.

Laura: Yeah. I think the fog of AI is being, like, right now, if you open any social media app, you know, every single application that you use right now is dead and dying, and

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: in the future... I, I, I, I just th- that there-- If you believe everything that is being said by, uh, like a, a marketing wave fueled by FOMO right now,

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: hard to know, you know, what, what is everything gonna look like once AI adoption gets from, like, 2% to 30% or s- and, and, and then, [00:27:00] like, to eventually 100%.

And I, I think, like, you'll see this. If you, if you look at the, if you look at the market right now, there's a tremendous amount of, like- Dry powder in, in traditional PE M&A, for example. Uh, no one really knows how to invest, so you see, like, a bunch of investors throwing money at, like, a-- throwing

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: m- more than you would expect to see in a seed or Series A at, like, a bunch of small businesses.

Just like, "Okay, let's, like, water a million dandelions and see which one grows into anything 'cause, like, I don't freaking know. I have no thesis on what's gonna happen in, in the market." And that's all, like, fog of AI. Like, I think people don't quite know who the winners and losers of the next chapter are gonna be.

Uh, and so you're seeing this in very disjointed, unstrategic investing and on then many people just sitting, uh, and not investing, uh, money. Or people being like, "Look, it's clear there's, like, a couple of clear winners," which is, like, you know, A- Anthropic and [00:28:00] OpenAI. "So can I get a piece? Can I get a piece?

Can I get a piece? Can I get a piece, uh, a small piece of that pie?" Because all of the other winners are kinda like, "I don't know. Can we just wait? Can we just wait it out? Can we wait it out and see who's gonna pull ahead?"

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: And so that, that's, like, what I call fog. And I think, like, you know, investors are in a fog.

You, as a CEO, can't be in a fog. You need to see the light coming from the lighthouse. You need to steer the ship. You can't wait, right? If you, if you're a P&E firm, like, sitting on a bunch of capital, th- there, there is a cost to not investing that capital. But, like, you know, ultimately you could really justify, like, "Well, let's just wait and see."

As a CEO, you really can't justify, "Let's just wait and see." You ha- you gotta chart a course through the fog and, and, and hope that you're right and be ready to pivot. And, and so that's, like, that's definitely, if you talk to any kinda CEO right now, what, what they're trying to do.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I mean, that's really good to know. Almost feels like a insider kind of insight. You know, there are a lot of noises and like you said, fog, which I think it's very [00:29:00] fitting since you are in San Francisco. Um,

Laura: Oh, yeah

Zhou Fang: uh, so you have to really see through it, and it can be a struggle at times. Um, so I guess I'm curious about, you know, as, uh...

since we are talking about AI and Descript is a AI forward company, and I use it for my, um, conversations, for my podcasts, et cetera. I don't want to diminish the of how much Descript has helped me in my work and, um, helped me save time, for example. At the same time, I also, there are real, real people behind Descript.

It's a whole team. And I remember we chatted a little bit before, is, you know, a story is a story. Humans tell stories. So from your perspective as the leader of an AI forward [00:30:00] company, where do you see, storytelling goes? Um, because I, from my perspective, because I'm a journalist, um, I think humans tell stories, and I also see humans telling a story with the help from technology and AI. So do you see- You know, humans and AI, are we partners? Are we competitors? What's the relationship there?

Laura: Yeah. I, I... Okay. So, um, a, a couple of years ago, I actually, I went, I went to an executive retreat with, um, you know, my, with, with Andrew, the founder of Descript, and, and with, um, our team at the time.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: this was all kind of just starting, this idea of like, "Oh, AGI is gonna happen next year." And I was like, "What's AGI?"

And someone's like, "Oh, it's like a [00:31:00] Nobel Prize intelligence in, in your pocket at all times." And I'm like, "Okay," uh, like, "for the purpose of what? We're like a creative company, like, for the purpose of what?" And, uh, and someone said, like, "Well, who's your..." Like, "Imagine that you could get, uh, fully wr- like, oh, what's your media, what's your medium of choice?"

And I was like, "Oh, I, I really like to read novels." And then they were like, "Okay, um, who's your favorite, who's your favorite novelist?" Like, or, "What if you could have endless content, endless novels on demand, uh, just like generated in a moment?" And I'm like, "I kinda feel like I already live in that world," right?

Like, there's like more novels than I'm ever gonna be able to read in my life. My problem isn't that there aren't enough novels. Like, that's not, that's not a problem that I have as a user right now. And they were like, "Okay, well, but like, okay, so it's about quality. So like, who's your favorite novelist?

Like, what, what's like a, a novelist that you love?" And I'm like, "Oh, I, I [00:32:00] really like Dostoevsky." And They were like, "Well, what if you could have, like, unlimited Dostoevsky novels? Like, you could have a new Dostoevsky novel every day." And we just kinda looked at each other, and he said, like, "Oh, never mind, this doesn't work for Dostoevsky."

And it was just like, I, I,

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: he'd still say that, but it's like

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: in that moment it was clear to both of us, like if AI could write a Dostoevsky novel, why would you read it? Like,

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: of reading, like, The Brothers Karamazov written by AI, it, like, fills me with disgust. Like, I'm just, like, the, it go- kind of goes against the whole fundamental, like, purpose of the, of the novel, which is, like, for humans to discover truth about, like, why we are here and what the purpose of humanity is.

And if AI tried to write me a book to do that, I would just be like, you know... I, [00:33:00] I, I'd feel anger, uh, to be offered such a book. Um, now I, I say that because, like, then maybe it, it builds enough credibility for me to say, like, I love using AI in creative endeavors. I think AI has a huge role to play in helping humans be more creative than they ever thought they could be, and that's my story with Descript.

My story with Descript is, like, I never thought that I could make, uh, videos, right? Like, I don't have any business to think I can make videos. And then I used Descript, and I was like, oh my God, I'm like a, I'm a video storyteller. Like, I can do this thing that I've seen only, like, people who seem so unlike me do, and, like, I can do it, me.

And it, it was like a creative conversion moment. And I know that, like, many of us have felt that using creative tools. E- even, like, uh, you know, people using Canva, right? That's the Canva story is, like, I'm not a [00:34:00] designer, but look, I made this really pretty thing with Canva. Like, that's an awesome feeling, and that's, like, technology gave you, you,

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: to do this thing that you never thought you could do, and that's exciting and wonderful.

Um, and AI is just gonna help people do that more and more, and a lot of the stuff they create is gonna be God-awful. And

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Laura: even so, it's good for the soul to create things. I encourage everyone to get out there and make bad art. Make it with AI. Make it with paints. Like, make it with whatever. But, like, being creative is a, is a, you know, a human good.

And, like, so go out and use whatever tools you can to be super creative, and I don't care if what you make is amazing or if it sucks, right? It's good to make it no matter what. And then it's like, um- You know, and, and so, so I don't know. To me, like AI absolutely has a role to play in creative endeavors. I don't think it should be the author though.[00:35:00]

Uh, and that is something that I feel. Like AI is, is there for the assist. I, I, I am-- Certainly what I will say is like in the future, there may be a market for AI-authored art. I am not interested in buying, using, participating AI-authored art. Um, but I'm very interested in, in... Well, I guess like what I'd say is like, but I am indifferent if there is a human author to what tools they use to, to, to help them create their human-authored art.

Uh, go use whatever you need, girl. Like whatever helps you finish.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. No, I resonate with that a lot. And for me, it was actually a pretty affirmative, experience 'cause I, you know, I didn't come from a super creative background. And for me, it's intimidating to use, like, say, Adobe.

Laura: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Uh, [00:36:00] and to learn something that's highly tech- technical a challenge for me. And now I'm not saying I don't have the creative ideas.

Like, in my mind, in my dreams, I see all these beautiful creations that I could potentially create. But the lack of, you know, um, ability or the lack of learning access kind of prohibited me from doing more than I would like to. So to your point, you know, being able to use Canva and use Descript kind of, like, bridged that gap between my creative thinking and my creative doing,

Laura: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: that I am empowered with a tool. It's not that I'm un- To me, maybe it's ju- just a little bit self-affirming. It's not like I'm un- capable. I'm capable, but I need the right tool. And I also agree, you [00:37:00] know, AI should not be the author, but AI is a great assistant.

Laura: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: the kind of relationship we have with AI, it also really requires a lot of, like, thoughtfulness 'cause we are not supposed to abuse it. we have to be very mindful about the usage of AI as well.

Laura: Um, I completely, completely agree with, with that. Um, yeah. Well said

Zhou Fang: Yeah. And, um, so... And I see-- I think I see that reflected through, you know, the platform. Um, when I first started using Descript, it was a much simpler platform. Um, and I remember it was connected with... What's the other tool? Something... Oh, now I don't remember. It was a recording tool, and then Descript was the editing tool.

Laura: Quadcast?

Zhou Fang: The [00:38:00] pod- for podcast. Uh, Square Squad or ScoreCast? Oh,

Laura: Quadcast, yeah.

Zhou Fang: Zcourcast. So I was actually, uh, initially using Zcourcast for recording and then Descript for editing. And now I can do both at the same platform. So I definitely see the evolvement and advancement of the tool. Um, so yeah. And also I'm curious, you know, um, as we chatted a little bit, a lot of leaders have their own philosophical and, uh, spiritual practice. And you told me that right now your practice is more geared towards, since 2018, like Judaism. we don't need to get into the religion or spirituality or whatever comfort level you have, but my curiosity is why? Like, why the switch?

Laura: Oh, interesting. Um, uh, that's a very long [00:39:00] story, uh, that we probably don't have time for. Uh, but the, the short answer is that I, um, got really sick after I had my first child. I had, like, a very, um, serious illness, and, um, yeah, it was, uh...

There was a, it had a, a very rough prognosis. Um, and I managed to kind of, like, turn that around, uh, largely I, through luck and a great set of doctors at UCSF.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: And I think, like, it's the kind of experience when you... I think when, when you're young, um, I had just turned 31 at the time, uh,

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: you, um, when you're young and, and you really have to confront mortality,

Zhou Fang: Yes.

Laura: think it, it, it forces, uh, forces you [00:40:00] to, to confront the concept of God and the divine.

Uh,

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Laura: when I got really, when I decided to... So, so Also important context is like my husband is Jewish. Um, we got married. I was like, "I'm not converting." We didn't have a religious, uh, ceremony. Uh, and then after I got sick, I, I, I ended up converting, and I think, like, I told him it's like my, it's like my Bob Dylan motorcycle card that I get to play.

Like, if you're Bob Dylan and you're in a motorcycle accident, you get to now just make albums about how much you love Jesus, and it's like I, you know, like when you, when you have to confront mortality, you're allowed to just, like, have a religious conversion and suddenly, um, ma- uh, like, have it be a big part, part of your personality, and so that, that's, um, that's kind of where that came from.

I do think that, like, uh, it's important to have... In leadership, it's important to have moral frameworks that feel, that you feel accountable to, whether those are religious moral frameworks [00:41:00] or kind of humanistic moral frameworks. And so I am very grateful, um, to not to have been sick. Uh, actually, one of the things I love about Judaism is its relationship to suffering in that it doesn't sort of push you towards having, uh, a sense of gratitude for your suffering or a sense that suffering is really meaningful.

Um, some suffering is quite meaningless and unnecessary, uh, and you don't need to feel grateful for it at all. Um, but, uh, but I am grateful for kind of all of the learning, um, that, that happened after that very scary time in my life, uh, because I, I think that it did, uh, force me to get clear on like, what am I doing here?

Uh, what is, what is this time? What is this brief flicker of life on Earth for? Uh, and, and, uh, the next time that I'm in this hospital bed thinking this might be it, uh, what do I want to have been true about my life? [00:42:00] Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Hmm. That's profound. that's so interesting. Um, I really do think, um, people who have gone through hardship, especially in facing life and death, that really is a transformative experience for better or for worse. Uh, I mean, no one wants to get sick or face death, but when that happens, what do we do with that? And I resonate with that because, um, I had-- I was in the OR two times a couple years ago when I was 36, also young, and I was just like, Come again?"

Laura: Yeah. Oh, God.

Zhou Fang: to the hospital, how you gonna think. But for me, I was back in the hospital three weeks later.

So that was like, okay, I haven't lear- like, give me some time so that I can process the lesson. So I haven't even processed the lesson. [00:43:00] But anyway, I think it really gives you or put you into this perspective, right? What, what are we here for? Like, why? And I think it's a beautiful thing because there are a lot of things in life, like you said, what's the learning here?

Why do we have to suffer? Like, it's not redeemable.

Laura: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: ha- It's not always redeem, redeemable So I appreciate that. And I think as we-- Well, again, I am so grateful that you agreed to chat today and have an interview with me. And for me, it's just, um, it's definitely a delight for me. And a lot of things I do these days is try to, um, remind people there's a lot of joy in our world. and so thank you for being part of it. I think it was a joyous conversation, so thank you for that. And as we wrap [00:44:00] up our conversation today, um, I would love to invite you to perhaps, mm, take off the CEO hat for a bit. Mm. Maybe not even the product manager hat. Um, but just as Laura, like, as Laura, what Laura think would be a life that is filled with abundance and joy?

Oh.

Laura: Yeah. I'm one of these, uh, people that has almost, like, an annoyingly smug answer to that, and it's kids.

Zhou Fang: I'm like,

Laura: Um, I, I, I mean, maybe it's, like, slightly more... I know, I like, I was... Um, but I think it's like, uh, to [00:45:00] me, that's an important part of, of my story too. I think that, you know, when I, when I was really sick, I had a, I had a one-year-old at home. And, um, and some people would say to me like, "Oh my God, I don't know how you're going through this when you have a one-year-old at home."

And I would say like, "You've got it all backwards." Like, I don't know how I could do this if I didn't have a one-year-old at home.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: because

Zhou Fang: Right.

Laura: person that keeps me, like, grounded in this world that has suddenly been revealed as, like, deeply dark and unfair, um, and unsafe in a lot of ways.

Like, this child connects me with joy every time I'm around him, and

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Laura: That the opposite of, like, death isn't life, but birth. Um, it's, it's [00:46:00] new, it's new life. And, and so, like, then after I was kinda out of the woods, I had two more kids. God help me. Um, but so... And, and that's how I experience kind of like the joy of, of, of new life and then, and, and, and there are many ways to, to enjoy that.

You do not need to have three boys. Um, s- it's not everyone. It's not for everyone. Um, but I think, like... And then I would expand that by saying, like, in general, one thing that I think we don't have enough of, that I have gotten tremendous joy from, is multigenerat- rational relationships. So, like, relationships with children and relationships with people a generation, uh, ahead of me.

And I think, like, keeping people in different moments of life close to you, deeply close, intimate, right? Not like the

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: kind of perfunctory, like, "How are you going?" But, like, having

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Laura: relationships with people in different stages of life, uh, is, is a constant source of [00:47:00] perspective, uh, joy, optimism, wisdom, uh, in my life, and something that I would, uh, that I would recommend everyone take a stab at.

Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. No, I, I truly resonate with that. I mean, I don't have human children, but I definitely do see that plays out in families, et cetera. I mean, talking about multi-generational joy and abundance, right? Like my, my fam- my extend- my, my, my extended family in China, we all have the elders, we all have aunts and uncles, we have cousins, we have nieces and nephews, et cetera. Like, when people gather, like, when you have those people gather, it's like four generations, right? You think about that.

Laura: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: generation, like... Yeah.

Laura: It's

Zhou Fang: That, that... Yeah.

Laura: the connect- this human chain that goes back. I mean, like, you have ancestors from tens of thousands of years ago, right? [00:48:00] Like, there is a chain of humanity, and every single one of them survived long enough for you to be here. And there is

Zhou Fang: I

Laura: intense gratitude that I feel when I think about that, uh, and respect for the troubles that they, that they-- the hardships that they fought through.

And then I think about, like, I'm in my moment, and now I have my children, and they'll have their moment, and this is gonna continue. And so, like, having those multigenerational relationships, I think connects me with the human project, which I only get to see a very small piece of, but which is, uh, to me, so inspiring and, um, yeah

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. feel that's very lucky, like, to every person who has the opportunity to witness that and be part of it. The, that, that human experience and the, the connection that we have, if we are able to observe it, be aware of it, I feel that's just so fortunate, because not everyone gets to experience that. [00:49:00] Um, so with that, uh, thank you again so much, Laura, for being here today. uh, yeah, I'm not sure how to conclude, 'cause usually I will conclude with how people find you, but people know how to find

Laura: Find me on LinkedIn. That's where I love to be. That's where I love to post, your favorite cringe social network. Um, but

Zhou Fang: Actually, no. Don't... No. Not my fa- Sorry. I probably will never get sponsorship from LinkedIn, but not my favorite.

Laura: Um,

Zhou Fang: but

Laura: so you can find me there. You can find me-- Check out Descript. I, uh, I love to receive product feedback, um, and I promise, you know, I will always do a podcast with a, with a, with a loyal Descript customer.

Zhou Fang: Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. And we didn't get to talk [00:50:00] about skincare today, but maybe we'll save that for next

Laura: How am I gonna get my sponsorship? This is my, this is my, like, long con of being the Descript CEO, so

Zhou Fang: Okay, shout out.

Laura: so that

Zhou Fang: out. You have

Laura: I just, I just think Sunday Riley should sponsor me. Uh, they have this thing called the CEO Serum, and I wanna be their CEO who, like, uses the CEO Serum, and I promise to mention it in all of my podcast appearances in a, a very seemingly authentic way.

Zhou Fang: Oh.

Laura: Uh, I love your vitamin C serum, Sunday Riley. Please sponsor me.

Zhou Fang: Uh... I, um, I expect, uh, some kind of, like, benefit from this too. I'd like to try your sample size. Thank you.

Laura: Yeah. Yes. Yes, exactly. We both want hookups.

Zhou Fang: Yes,

Laura: Manifesting, manifesting,

Zhou Fang: Uh, Activate. Manifest and then activate. it's happening

Laura: It's [00:51:00] happening.

Zhou Fang: Uh, thank you so much, Laura, and I will stop here.

Laura: All right.