" We Bring Curious Minds to Curious Problems," with Graham Hulbert, on Neurodiversity, Neuro-inclusive Leadership, Intersectionality, and Making Adjustments.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: All right. Uh, hello everyone. Welcome back to the Intersection Podcast program. uh, I am thrilled to have, uh, our guest here today, um, and a new friend, uh, his name is Graham Halbert. And Graham and I met through our mutual friend Kara Meyers. And, um, since meeting Graham, I feel I have been learning a lot him about how to be more inclusive and make our, uh, program and services more accessible to all.

So, um, . Welcome Graham.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Thanks Joe. Yeah, Graham Holbert, uh, give a sort of introduction bio of myself. So, um, I am, uh, I guess we'll start with a visual description. I'm a white man, uh, in my sort of, I like to say mid thirties. I think I need to start saying [00:01:00] late thirties now. Um. I've got round glasses with kind of a, a tint to them and turtle shell kind of frames, um, have a full beard and, uh, uh, kind of a side potted, uh, haircut with specs of gray in it.

And I'm sat in my, my office. Um. Studio back home in Portland, Oregon as a, a ceiling fan behind me and some, some wood grain, uh, accent wall as well in the background. And that's, that's about it. So folks kind of understand my space. Um, so what about me? I'm the founder of Tula Consulting, which is, uh, my consulting firm with a, a mission to, to help build more neuro, neuro inclusive, um, workspaces.

I'm a neurodivergent thinker. Um. Currently in time right now, I'm just wrapping up, uh, the first semester of, um, a class I've been teaching in partnership at U University of Oregon, which is all about neuro [00:02:00] inclusive leadership. And, um, it's a really good time to sort of talk about this sort of, uh, I'm, I'm well versed in all of this.

It's all fresh in, in the mind to discuss like what post pandemic leadership looks like. Um, so I'm excited to do that today. My background is in mechanical engineering. Um. Um, went into out of school, I went into manufacturing and supply chain sort of process improvement. That kind of quickly moved into business process improvement and program management.

Um, ultimately landing with like a consulting firm helping support, um, execution of, of large scale transformations and strategic projects. Um, and now at Tula, you know, we're, we're all about bringing curious minds to curious problems and, uh, helping folks learn, um, how to, uh, how to be more neuro inclusive in their workspace and also just.

Leading by example, bringing, uh, neurodivergent thinkers in to, um, help organizations with their, their challenges and, and help 'em solve those with our, um, [00:03:00] awesome power of thinking. Um, yeah. So what else? I think, yeah, good time to, to talk about this, like I said, with the, the class at U of O and I'm, I'm excited to be here and sort of talk about what leadership looks like today in this post pandemic era.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Thank you, Graham, and I think you are the first, uh, guest who ever shared your visual description, which I cannot believe. I have never done that before, so that's entirely on me. Um, so with that, uh, inspiration, I will just briefly share my own visual description as well, and I. Entirely unprepared, so I'm going to use this as an opportunity to practice. Um, so yeah, I, my name's Jo Fang and uh, I am a Chinese looking woman in her late thirties as well. I don't know how much I want to include that part, but Okay. Um, right [00:04:00] now I have a half ponytail behind me and my hair is black. I am wearing a pair of glasses because I'm shortsighted. And I'm glasses. My glasses are, um, black frame and I am wearing a hoodie as well as, uh. Sweater and I have some, um, evergreen plants behind me along with a couple photos, uh, with my dogs and some books behind me as well. And, um, and I am in my office and of course I am speaking with my guest, Graham Hubbard from ULA Neurodiversity Consulting. Okay. How do I do? Um.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Okay, great.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I should definitely do that more with our guests going forward.

So thank you very much for that inspiration, Graham, and I really appreciate you saying, you know, uh, ULA Neuro Diversity Consulting [00:05:00] with curious minds to curious problems. Um, and I think that actually, I never thought it this way, but that's a really good way to describe, uh, neurodiversity.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Like I feel a lot of people consider that as, especially, uh, folks who are unfamiliar with neurodiversity or neurodivergent, people consider that as like, oh, I need to accommodate you. Right. We talked about that before. It's like a accommodation or adjustment, and you said in the UK it's more about adjustment, which I think is more human, which I think works with curious really well. Because it is about curiosity and it's not a chore. Like it's not a burden. It's not extra. not like asking for too much, but [00:06:00] it is a mind. Of course, it is curious. Um, so I really appreciate, um, your self introduction and of course we are gonna talk about post pandemic leadership. Um, but in between that, I'm also curious, um, to learn about, you know, your experience both personally and professionally as you navigate, um, through the pandemic and the changes you observed during that time.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah. I think, um, yeah, I'm happy, happy to, to share that kind of my, my experience and I think kind of how the workplace and, and kind of everybody that went through it, some, some key takeaways, I think quite large, um, through the pandemic there. And yeah, just to address your curious, uh, appreciation, I love that.

Uh, it's one of the core values at Tula and, um. And it is a, a real common theme among neurodivergent folks is we tend to be a lot more, [00:07:00] um, curious, a lot more naturally curious, and that that can look like a desire to learn and uh, an ability to keep learning through life. But it can also look like a, um, sometimes people feel challenged.

'cause our curiosity is like, why, why are we doing this? Why do you want us to do this? Um, I need to understand 'cause I'm such a curious person. Um. And in, in outside a neurodivergent culture that can sometimes feel like a challenge and lead to conflict. Um, whereas it's really a neurodivergent culture, just, uh, part of how we show up and engage with the world.

Um, so, so yeah, it's why it's a, a core value at Tula. Um, so yeah, thoughts about pandemic, my experience through the pandemic and, and I think largely what many folks experienced, I think, . One of the biggest great, like greatest things that kind of opened up was this realization of just how flexible we can be in how we go about getting our work done, um,

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Hmm.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: versus kind of, um.

You know, the, the processes you're expect to follow [00:08:00] and outcomes you're looking to achieve. I think suddenly, um, organizations were kind of, um, forced to figure out like, oh, well we know the outcomes, but the how we do it is now wide open. And it increased this like array of, of ways folks can do their work.

Um, and for me as a neurodivergent person, uh, like I learned. Just how much the nine to five in an office was, um, impacting my wellbeing and my ability to kind of stay on top of that and, and, and life in general, you know, that work-life balance, um, was impacting me really hard harshly, and I didn't realize until I saw a different model.

And I think many folks, um, realized that. And, and I think employers having to try something different that. Before the pandemic, we had the ability to work this differently. We had the technology, but it was something employees are very [00:09:00] cautious about, allowing permitting. It was big conversations. If you wanted to work remote, you had to justify that to,

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Mm-hmm.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: um, even though the technology was there, the impetus around actually doing it wasn't, and the pandemic kind of forced that.

Um, that model into play. And, and now it's, it's a much harder conversation to say why it doesn't work. 'cause we, we, we know the many ways it can work. Um, so it really opened that, that flexibility in, in how we go about getting our work done, which was, which was a pretty, pretty big deal for so many people.

Um, I think particularly in, in a neurodivergent community, folks learned about that. Neurodiversity learned they were neurodivergent because suddenly their nervous system had a chance to kind of. Regulate and stay, um, stay regulated throughout the week or the day. Um, and they, they noticed the impact it had been having on their life.

So, um, yeah, it gave us a sort of redistribution of what work-life balance can look like. Um, [00:10:00] and it shifted some traditional models of management, of leadership, right? Like, how do we communicate? What are the methods of communication we rely on most? Um, how do we, um. Productivity and work like, uh, a traditional kind of use of, of power and legitimate sort of hierarchy uses, uh, reward punishment, coercion, like.

Method, which needs a lot of surveillance. So that became really high maintenance in a hybrid environment where you, you, you can't just walk past your employees and check in on them with, with surveillance. Um, so it shifted that ability to use that sort of power in leadership and, um, what became successful and what, what the companies that embraced this.

, The companies that embraced a newer method of kind of leadership or, or different, um, the method, I'm trying to say, and I don't know why I'm stumbling on my senses, but it's just this like, uh, referent or informational power where you share the why, you share the [00:11:00] mission, you share the objectives, you share the desired outcomes, uh, and it builds a much better, um, ability for somebody to, who's working remotely.

To have that autonomy in, in like, oh, I know why I'm doing this, what the goals are, I can go about achieving it, um, without super valence super, um, supervision.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: So, so this, this idea of like leading by, by reference or leading by, um, sharing the why and giving space for folks to really grasp the understanding and then letting them go and execute their work, whatever, it allows 'em to then execute that work whichever way they want, as long as they're achieving the outcome.

So it really shifted the narrative from, um. Managing the how to explaining and managing the outcomes and letting folks figure out their own how, you know. Um, and, and that's a big thing in neuro inclusion that we talk about is focus on outcomes, desired outcomes that you're looking for in a job responsibility.[00:12:00]

And let there be space and flexibility for how people go about. And as a manager, as a leader, you get to coach and support and, and collaboratively figure out how that might be. Um, to achieve that outcome. Doesn't have to be on the individual to, to problem solve that, but there, there's a better space for figuring that out.

Um, so yeah, I, I think those are kind of some of the, the higher level like narrative shifts that, that opened up during the pandemic, um, in, in how we lead.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Yeah, definitely. I resonate with that. I'm not sure, you know, I don't know for sure if I, myself is a neurodivergent, um, because I never went for like any evaluation or diagnosis. But as an introvert, um, like I. I can socialize pretty Okay. Um, if I know, you know, what I'm getting into, if I have a plan, like say, Hey, I have a work meeting, then I have the expectation, for example. [00:13:00] um, I'm, I'm like an introvert, so do Before the pandemic, I also had to go to the office every day, like nine to five or like nine to six, whatever. And. As soon as we got into the pandemic and forced to working remotely, I did notice my own kind of like anxiety level, just like went down, um, because I felt like, okay, I can totally be myself in my own space.

I don't have to. Perform for anyone. Like of course you still work, so your work performance is still there. But for me, I don't have to be like chitchat. 'cause I don't like chitchat.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I don't have to chitchat with my coworkers. I don't have to be like, Hey, can I grab you for five minutes? Like no. Like I just really use it.

I just wanna say no.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah,

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: you can't.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: yeah. I'm in the middle of, so.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: for five minutes. 'cause [00:14:00] we all know that's not gonna be five minutes. And you know, like, and, and also there were so many meetings. I'm like, dude, like, just send me a note. I don't need to meet with you right now. So, yeah, like, I think, mean, of course the pandemic was horrendous. Um. On so many levels, but I think in this particular perspective, um, when it comes to working style or management style, being able to work remotely. Uh, really enhanced or improved my mental health just for me. So reflecting, you know, your experience there, I can definitely, uh, resonate. So thank you for sharing that.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Okay.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: now, you know, we are a couple years air quotes, post pandemic. Well, the thing is pandemic was never [00:15:00] declared, like gone.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: was never like a statement say, Hey, we're out of the pandemic. So I feel like we're still in the pandemic forever, but like practically we are post pandemic. now what kind of shifts are you seeing in your practice and teaching and coaching, like post pandemic leadership these days?

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah, I, I do wanna like acknowledge your, your colla it, it was, you know, uh, to just honor how hard the pandemic was for many to, to talk about the, the benefits of shifting employment models. Um. Is like it, it's a privilege in itself to be able to have an employment model that allows you to work from a remote condition.

And many folks did not experience that. And I think it is, um, important to call out that, . That was predominantly the largest part of it was the, the [00:16:00] difficulties everybody faced. Um, and that, yeah, it is still here. COVID is still here. I still mask in public spaces. I have friends who are vulnerable, um, for various reasons, and our community is very much still COVID aware and.

Uh, I think we will have a better understanding in our, in our group of like, just how much you can prevent illness by wearing a mask when you're in busy public spaces and these little practices that, that we've learned that are actually helping keep the community safer. And we, we've kept, kept up with that and I think that's important to, to call out.

Um, but yeah, in terms of like post, uh, pandemic kinda lockdown environment, um, how things have shifted, um, , the term shift is something I actually kind of describe it, uh, I've said this before, is like around how companies have responded as we kind of came outta lockdown and, and tried to reestablish like new norms.

Um, it tells you a lot the way [00:17:00] companies have acted, tells you a lot about their mindset, their sort of, um, leadership culture and, and, um. And practice because, so, and I, so I call it the, it's similar to the Redshift, which is a, um, astronomy concept of like, um, or like law around like the, as the universe is expanding, you can tell the speed at which, um, a part of the universe is, is moving at by where the red light, um, in the spectrum, what frequency it kind of sits at compared to where it sits here on, on earth.

And that's, it's kind of like a radar or doppler effect with sound, but with light. And it's where the red part of the spectrum sits, and it's called the red shift. And, and based on this sh shift, you can tell whether the piece of the universe you're looking at is, is moving away from you or moving towards you or whatever that might be.

So I see the way organizations react to the pandemic as it gives you an coming out of the pandemic that is, um, it gives you an [00:18:00] ability to measure how they approach. Their, um, management style, how they approach, uh, working with their employees, how they approach achieving their outcomes, you know, um, so we saw, so a, a real mix of companies trying to get back to how it was before and calling people in the office.

And we saw others that totally reevaluate that operating model, um, to, uh, to be more flexible or to reduce overheads of, of office spaces and things like that. Um. And to, to allow better hiring, more diverse hiring of like people in different areas, different geographic locations. Um. Suddenly became available because they weren't confining themselves to a geographic office space.

Um, so I think that was one of the, one of the large things you see is just, just how a company generally responded is, is really important, um, to, to understand like, what company am I walking towards? Am I going into as you're kind of interviewing or part of a company?

I, I think [00:19:00] currently I kinda see this as like, um, kind of three waves of movement that kind of came out of the pandemic. That, that right now in, in current time, few years outside of the pandemic's, lockdown kind of era, they're all, they've all amassed, you know, it's like three waves coming together and, and they form this really big movement.

And I, I think that's really the three waves. A lot, a lot of folks realizing. How much flexibility there is and how you, how you can do your work, execute your work successfully. Right. And, and how much that benefits neurodivergent folks. Um, we had the, the murder of George Floyd during the pandemic, the massive global movement of Black Lives Matter, um, that came out of that.

And this. This demand for accountability, uh, that employers, um, assess and reevaluate their systems, um, to look for oppression and, and, and prejudice and racism within the systems. [00:20:00] And there was a real, like demand for accountability through that movement. So that shifted a lot of organizations to be more.

Thought bound and more accountable as to how do we hire, what practices are we doing? Um, are we doing enough? Like how do we continue to learn? And that, that led to a large wave of, um, people, some of my clients call it like the DEI 2.0, which was like, um, neurodiversity and a bunch of folks like myself that learned, um.

Through the pandemic, just how much they were impacted, um, by the previous working conditions. Like they started speaking up and advocating for more inclusive spaces. So that's like the second wave, right? We've got this pandemic realization. We've got. Um, this Black Lives Matter movement, trying to make equitable and accessible workplaces, um, and just systems of employment and systems of oppression within society.

Um, and then we have this, this new generation of workers right now coming into the workforce, right? So Gen Z, um, [00:21:00] who a core part of their like fundamental years in development were through the pandemic, right? Had. A core piece of that. They're still learning, they're still developing, they're forming their identity.

And they did that through, um, multiple years of a sort of lockdown environment where the digital connected virtual spaces led to this, this massive kind of collectivism movement of folks feeling like. Finding power. I was gonna say feeling powers. What they did was find power in this collective. Like we have an online presence, we can ask and demand things and, um, we're not gonna accept the status quo.

Um, so now we're coming outta the pandemic. We have a more accountable organizational cultures trying to see and improve the, um, where their, their systems might show up there, or, um, marginalizing or, or pressing folks. We have a bunch of neurodivergent employees that realize just how hard [00:22:00] it was following regular norms.

Um, and then we have a new generation of, of workforce coming in that says, no, we live in a digitally connected world. We have a collective power that, and we believe, um, in accountability around doing the right thing and building inclusive spaces. So it's kind of led this, it's, there's no to, in my mind, there's no way you go behind back to the previous.

Post pandemic days of like leadership style, it's, it's not available. It's if you try to do that, you're leaving, you know? So all three of those things behind, which is the, adds up to the majority of your workforce, um, in the next few years. So, um, I think it's exciting time for like, um, for employment model.

There's shifting and, and embracing kind of new norms, um, and. , So those models were already, so the employ model before pandemic, it was old anyway. It was, it was like, I don't know, [00:23:00] let's 50, this, this idea of a 40 hour non, non Yeah. Salary contract with like, um, exempt from overtime and that, that's something folks are grateful for.

And, and that's a. That's like 1950s kind of employment contract, right? So you think about that, it's been a while since we really questioned our employment like mechanisms, um, in the sort of middle management kind of, uh, corporate America sort of, um, corporate workspaces. So I think it's an exciting time right now where a lot of clients that come to me are looking to do things differently.

They're looking for new. What does new leadership look like? What do new job descriptions look like? How do we attract and retain talent? Um, how do we post a job that looks attractive as well? It's like shows this stuff and, , I feel I've got through my points, but I'm not sure if I made them very succinctly or very elegantly.

So, yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: No, I think you've touched on all your points and um, [00:24:00] I do really agree. I feel like. You know, this is not just like a pre pandemic pandemic, a post pandemic thing. Um, very, I mean, it's true. This is how things gradually progressed, but I feel even if we look outside of the pandemic, right, that's generally how history works or how progress works is. You know, over time we move forward. So it's like after that three years, pretty intense, um, pandemic, um, induced new work styles, and for a certain population and workforce, uh, especially people who used to go to the office, but now they don't need to go to the office anymore. Um, for this specific part, it's progress. Right. And [00:25:00] especially when you apply that to folks with neurodiversity, then that's actually, um, a plus. That's like benefits. How can you take away people's benefits after they have a taste of it? It's like, that's how I feel. It's like, I don't know if this is necessarily an like appropriate analogy. It's almost like. You know, as children we try different things, right? Like sometimes we try something we like, sometimes we try something we really don't like, but like of children like ice cream. Like how can you deny ice cream to children after they have the taste of it? They're like, I really like it.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: know?

It's like, uh, so I'm saying is you can deny progress. And try to bring things back to, oh, that's how we [00:26:00] used to do things. I want to go back. No. No, it's like you can't,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: go back to the, you know, pre seventies. Like you can't go back to the fifties when women didn't have bank account. No.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Right.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: like you just can't do that.

So, um, I feel like I'm kind of like stepping back, looking at the big picture, but I think what you just described is really like, after we've made progress, it's, it will be agonizing to take that away from people.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: I, I think it just, it's really, really difficult, especially when you think of it through, if we look through the lens of, of neurodiversity. Um, so I talk about neurodivergent folks and, and our culture, our communication preferences, the way we. In the world, the way we like to show up all these norms that are part of how we show up as individuals, expressive, creative people.

Um, and with neurodiverse, with neurodiversity and, and neurodivergent folks specifically like myself have, um, A DHD, autism and Dyslexia. These, this [00:27:00] isn't just identity, this is disability as well. And, you know, there's law, the, the law in America that a DA, it talks about. Um, reasonable accommodations that aren't undue hardship on the company, right?

Is that's kind of the language within the a DA and it's really hard now after, um, this pandemic, um, lockdown where folks manage to work in many different environments through a hybrid kind of, um, work model or remote work model. It's hard to prove that that's now an undue hardship. So, so outside of analogy ice cream or not, it's actually like, um, the legal precedent's really hard to prove that you, you can't accommodate these folks, um, who are asking for things and, and yeah, we talked about that, um, earlier this week around realizing like, um, a lot of the challenges neurodivergent folks experience, um, for neuro folks who are more neurotypical.

Experience those challenges too, right? We've all forgotten our [00:28:00] keys once in a while. You know, my A DHD and working memory results in me, literally looking at the time on my wristwatch and forgetting to read the time. Like that's, you know, so that's not a neurotypical experience. It's, and, and the reason I'm sharing this kind of.

This difference is, yes, we both experience these things. We're both, we're all human, right? We have these similar experiences. However, for neurodivergent folks, their frequency, the intensity, and the effort associated with managing these challenges,

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Mm-hmm.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: is far greater. And, and it's what changes a preference to a need, right?

So, uh, I, and that's something I'd say to anyone listening if, if you identify as neurotypical, if you've never really thought about it. Somebody shares a challenge with you. Um, as a neurodivergent person, they share a challenge and say, Hey, this is really hard. I'm struggling. Like, oh, well I understand that struggle.

I would say perhaps you don't, perhaps you don't realize the frequency, intensity and the [00:29:00] effort involved of managing that challenge for this person. So what you are seeing as a preference is actually a need, is an accommodation from, from a neurodivergent disabled person. So I like to just kind of call that out.

'cause I think it helps frame things in a way people can relate to and, and have a bit more empathy or towards.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I totally agree. I feel like when, whenever people say, oh, so what's your preference? It's almost no. For some people, again, why am I keeping using food as a. Analogy, um, is that

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: It's lunchtime.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: like people say, I need to eat gluten-free food. I don't prefer gluten-free food 'cause I will get really sick if I ate gluten. And that's not a preference, that is a need.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: That's a name.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: condition. So I really appreciate you calling. Now, you know, it's not a [00:30:00] preference for, for a lot of people perhaps, right?

It's nice to have a chair that's padded,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: you know, that's

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: nice to have. But for some people say if you, if I had, I don't know, injury,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: just

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Chronic pain. Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: then I need a chair with padding. yeah, I, yeah, so I think that's just really important to call out and, um, thank you for saying that. Um, so. You got me just being very, very curious and more interested in learning more about, uh, neuro role, uh, inclusivity and neuro inclusive leadership.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: And, uh, we talked a lot about, you know, what happened in the past, how things have changed and your observation and some theories as well.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I'm curious to learn [00:31:00] about your strategy. Or, um, teaching or like some practical things that we can do when it comes to implementation. Like how do we in, in implement,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Right,

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: inclusive leadership

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: right. So like, what are some practical changes you can make in, in the way you lead that, that would have some immediate benefit or something like that? Like, uh, key, key things. Yeah. Um. So I, I like to just, just kind of lead with the, the environment, the sensory environment to consider. There's so, so much of the, like, I think it's something like 80 to 90% of the, like, functions of the brain are related to sensory input.

It's such a huge part of, of our nervous system. Um, and for, for neurodivergent folks, um, , it's much more sensitive. It's much more, uh, intense. Uh. Background noises, ambient noises, multiple conversations, things like that. A neurotypical brain has an ability to, to, um, [00:32:00] channel out and kind of naturally focus on the, the piece we're engaged with.

Whereas for neurodivergent folks that often that background, um, noise, that sensory input that isn't relevant to the, the context of whatever we're engaging with that can get more intrusive, more loud, more interrupting. Over time. Um, so it kind of works the opposite as neurodivergent, as neurotypical kind of, um, folks generally engaged.

So I like to just share, to think about the sensory environment, making sure we're thinking through the lighting. Is it adjustable? Is it, is it bright, is it soft? Is it warm? Um, the, um, the type of lighting, like fluorescent lights, horrible. They're gonna give half your workforce migraines, I'm sure of it. Um, and, uh.

So the smells, like, do we have air purifiers near the kitchen? Are we bringing food into, uh, work meetings and forcing everyone to kind of try to work while smelling someone else's? Um, I'm sure delicious food, [00:33:00] but just not, not the, it's a distraction, right? It can be a challenge. So sensory environment and then just keeping, uh.

Interruptions, loud burst of laughter, shouting clatters of pot and pan. Just thinking about that, um, how that can dysregulate a nervous system and, and that intersects with psychological safety and trauma informed practices of people with hyper vigilance built into their, their daily operations. Um, and how building sensory safe environments helps for psychological safety as well.

Um, and then, you know, I mentioned this a lot at the beginning to talk about allowing flexibility in how folks do their work. So to focus on outcomes, making sure you're really clear on explaining and defining what the outcomes of the work desired work are, so that flexibility and autonomy can be made around how they go about achieving those, um, those work deliverables.

Um, yeah, I, I think be iterative and be [00:34:00] flexible is just the biggest thing. Like, it, it's okay if somebody's asking to change something. Um, to just try it, you know, see how it works, evaluate it, tweak it, be iterative, be collaborative. Um, and, uh, yeah. Yeah. I, I think the last point I've had here I've already touched on is just to realize that someone's something you might see as a preference could actually be a need to someone else.

And, and a lot of these challenges, you know, they hit, you don't get to see them. You have to really trust your, your employees when they come to you with a need. Um. You know, it's, it's hidden. It's, it's non apparent disabilities. Um, so when I say they're struggling, you have to trust and believe and validate, have affirmative language, strength-based language to, to help support your, your employees through these things.

Um, yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I love that. I really do. Um, I think the censoring. Environment is a big one. now I feel like maybe I should do some [00:35:00] assessment or something. 'cause when you mentioned lighting and smell, those two things really bothered me when I was in a office environment and I was working like, to make it worse, I was working in like a shared office space and it was so noisy all the time. lighting is like very, just like blinding, like bright and fluorescent of course. Um, and there was a shared kitchen on the floor. So you know, you hear the microwave, that's for one. And then people heat up their lunches. And there was one time, it was like around holidays. I kid you not, someone cooked a Turkey in the kitchen. I.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Oh my gosh. An entire Turkey.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I am, like I was on 11th floor, I would have jumped if [00:36:00] I wasn't on 11th floor.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Uh huh.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Um, but I, yeah, I connect to that so much now. Uh, this very unpleasant memory is coming back to me.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: I feel like I got some curiosity. In your own neuro identity, you're kind of like, Hmm, I relate to a lot of this. It's, uh, yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: And, and you mentioned, uh, psychological safety as well, and as a woman,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I just, I mean, I laugh, but it's such a, it's a dry laugh because the hypervigilant is real. Like I'm so vigilant as a woman, as

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: woman, as an immigrant,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: was prepared for people to say. hinged things at all times.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah, it's a, it's a real sad truth. Um, around one, I mean, one of the statistics we share in our [00:37:00] psychological safety training is 75% of your employees have experienced one or more traumatic events in their life. It's, we, you know, we talk about trauma with Big T's and little Ts, and, and we often think of it as something far away and, and, um.

And ex extreme. Um, but its definition is a lot more broad than that. The brain, especially for young people, doesn't associate uh, it doesn't compare like what's extreme to one person versus another. So, um, and for neurodivergent folks with this extremely sensitive, emotional, um, reg, extremely sensitive sensory system and em emotional intensity.

Uh, it's, we're statistically more likely to experience a challenging event as a traumatic, our brain will build a trauma response and association around it. So the intersections of psychological safety, neuro inclusive inclusion, and just inclusion, intersection inclusion in general is, is so important.

It's why it's a whole, um, [00:38:00] module of our, our leadership training. Um, in, uh, in that course, I just finished up with University of Oregon. Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Yeah, no, I like per, from my personal perspective, I appreciate it so much. I feel, you know, I'm not. I'm not out of my mind. You know, it's like when I don't feel safe, I want people, I want people to believe me. And um, and I think being able to. Um, see people for who they are. When they say, I don't feel safe, believe them.

Or when they say, this is what I need to be able to, uh, do my job, then believe them. And do your best to adjust, right? Like you said,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: beyond accommodation, but it's an adjustment. Adjust your office setting, adjust your company policy to help people. Be better and, um, you know, have a better life and [00:39:00] better work life balance, et cetera. Uh, so yeah, I got kind of wired up a little bit, but I'm trying to calm down. Um. Uh, I really appreciate this conversation, Graham. And, um, one thing I want to mention, um, because our listeners don't necessarily know, and I hope Graham, you don't mind me sharing, is that we, you and I, before this recording, we actually set up a procedure,

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Mm-hmm.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: You know, we chatted, we chatted again, we had email communications, and then we had a pre-recording check-in to ensure the recording process is smooth and, um, you know, comprehensive and straightforward. Um, so I want to mention that because again, um. It's [00:40:00] not usually how I conduct these interviews because of my own kind of style or my own flow is that when I have an idea for a conversation, I go for it. But Graham, you were very, um, proactive about setting a procedure for our conversation and I was like. course, like if I want to have a successful interview, if I want our guests to have a pleasant experience, of course we should be able to coordinate and partner on that.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: I really appreciate that you're, you're calling that out and um, 'cause that is, I mean, that's like. Common experience, uh, for autistic folks is, is like, so number one, a strength is our ability to build a plan and, and structure, um, around something that might be a big ambiguous, right? And the challenge around that for us [00:41:00] is that, um, in order to bring my best self to, to know the thoughts and reflections I wanna share, I need to visualize and kind of script that out in advance a little bit to, to make sure that it's all available in my, my.

Limited working memory. Right. Um, I need to make sure I can recall it and bring the words and the thoughts and reflections that I wanna share. Um. Uh, so yeah, I appreciate you calling that out. You know, I, and that was, that started me advocating for my needs, which is a big part of, um, of, of this work is learning what your needs are and being able to have a strong narrative around what you need.

And I appreciate that you accommodated that and we worked through, and, and I hope it has led to a better podcast for you. I, I've appreciated it so.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: For sure, and I feel this kind of mentality is very, um, applicable to a lot of folks, especially women and women of color, like of course folks with neurodiversity, right? Say people with [00:42:00] disability or neurodivergent folks. Yes, we all need to learn to voice up. And, uh, ask for what we need. No more, no less, right?

This is what we need, so we should have it. Um, but I think it also apply to, uh, a woman like me, people like me, like I'm thinking about, um, because one of my focuses, uh, is pay equity. And I know so many women like. Countless woman asking me, how can I ask for a race? Um, like, like, really, I hope this conversation gives people an idea.

You know, you, it's not nice. It's not just nice to have a race. You need a race. You deserve a race. Like this is what you deserve. Like these, all these accommodations, like say sensory, you [00:43:00] know, sensitive environment, people who can work from home, flexible work hours, you know, for working mothers or for working parents, et

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Those are not nice to have things. a lot of us, we need to really think about what is the preference and what is necessity. so I really hope people can, um, think more on. and beyond that, you know, how can we be advocate for ourselves and for each other?

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: so I feel that's my takeaway at

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah. And then the mirror, the mirror side of that is, um, as someone, if you're in leadership building a culture in an organization is. Where are you asking for justifications, for flexibility? Because, you know, do I need to justify it as a disability? Do you need to justify it as a working mother or whatever it might be like?

Or is it like, Hey, I need to work from home this week. [00:44:00] I, I trust as a leader, I trust you that you are, get your outcomes for the week achieved, no matter how you figure that out. And, and we can be flexible and in the end, you don't need to go through this kind of, um. Anxiety provoking or othering experience of asking for a specific need that feels, um, like, that feels it's all on you to advocate yourself.

So yeah, the mirror image is build an environment that, uh, doesn't, doesn't look for you to justify through a narrow lens of when you can and can't, um, accommodate flexibility, um, be trusting and, um, be clear in what you're looking for your employees to achieve and, and you can then allow that flexibility.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Yeah, and I'm reflecting, you know, my way of kind of producing and conducting interviews is like my. My perspective is that I trust my guests. Uh, they [00:45:00] know what they're talking about. We have a topic, we have a plan. 'cause we always have a high level structure I always trust my guests to come here and talk about things they care about have a good time. So I think that's the foundation I work from. And I feel, you know, when people say, um, actually, can we have a little bit more structure? Then I feel we should, you know, as the lead or as the guide in a conversation, we should really consider that and try to, because this is a common, like this is a common and shared interest, right?

We want to have a good conversation and that's the goal. And how can we work towards that common goal? Um, so thank you very much, Graham.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah. Well, I have to talk about the things we enjoy and have a good time is the goal of [00:46:00] the podcast. I feel like we've achieved that. I, I feel,

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: I agree. I agree. Even though I will say you reminded me of my unpleasant days in the office.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: now I need to go breathe.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Yeah, do for a walk. Have a little grounding moment. I think I'll be doing the same. Um, yeah.

zhou_1_11-13-2025_110529: Uh, but uh, with a lot of appreciation and things to think about, and I hope people can have some very good takeaway from this conversation as well. And with that, thank you, Graham.

graham_1_11-13-2025_110528: Thank you, Joe. Thank you everyone. And yeah, goodbye.