"Empathy is a Technical Skill" with Andrea Goulet, on Empathy in Tech, Empathetic Communications, and the SCALE framework.

Transcript:
0:11
Ready.
We are recording.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to The Intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality, intersectional identities, and intersectional journeys, both professionally and personally, individually.
0:29
And they are very, very intertwined.
And part of intersectionality for me is empathy.
I think empathy is a really big component of this intersectional life.
And today I have the perfect guest for the program.
0:47
My other guests are also perfect.
I, I don't want to upset people, but I really do have a perfect guest today.
Her name is Andrea Goulet and she's the founder of Empathy in Tech and she's also the founder of a newer organization called Lovelace Communications.
1:11
And Andrea and I connected a few years ago via Katie, I think, and at the time, I was very, very hooked by the concept and practice of empathy.
1:28
So years passed and today I'm just so happy and honored to have Andrea on the program.
So, Andrea, please introduce yourself.
Yeah, empathy.
So thank you so much.
I'm so glad to be here.
And I think just to I love your focus on intersectionality and I think it, it makes a lot of sense probably to talk about how empathy and tech came to be by focusing on actual and intersectional identity.
1:56
That truly was a crisis.
So for me, I went through school and my friend Scott, we went to high school together.
I went to school for marketing and business communications and Scott was your traditional engineer.
2:14
We reconnected our high school reunion and I had been posting a lot of stuff on a blog and things like that around business communication.
I had run my own business before and at our 10 year reunion, Scott was like, I really want to start a software company and I know you from high school and I know your work and you are the person I want to be the CEO of my software company.
2:41
I was like, I don't code, I don't like I'm not a programmer.
And he was like, no, you may not think you are a programmer, but you sure do think like a programmer.
And what was so interesting was that I had this very averse like identity piece to it that I had to really overcome.
3:03
So we did some due diligence.
MY1 stipulation was if I was going to do this, empathy had to be at the very core of everything we did because that was how I had created communication systems for, you know, large organizations and small businesses that were actually effective.
3:21
And I didn't think that software was any different.
So we go to create our branding and our strategy.
And like, I was really surprised because we had so much pushback.
We had consultants who literally told us you cannot say the word empathy and software in the same sentence because you will be laughed out of the industry.
3:44
There was this huge pushback that empathy and software are oil and water.
They do not belong together.
And this was really confusing to me.
And I think this is one of those things where being, you know, having a fresh perspective was really a strength.
But there was a key moment during all of this where we were starting to speak at conferences and share a little bit more about our ideas.
4:08
And Scott and I also ended up getting married a few years after we started running the business together, which gave us even more motivation to figure out this stuff and to really find ways to, you know, I'm your typical salesperson.
4:23
He's your typical engineer.
Like, there are, you know, very strong miscommunication challenges.
And we had to figure some of those out.
And so to me, what was really, really transformative around this in terms of identity and intersectionality was Scott and I were on our way to, you know, kind of his grandma's house for Thanksgiving.
4:49
We had he had just gotten on like the first podcast and was like, we were so excited.
Oh my gosh, let's listen to it.
He gives, you know, this great interview.
And then at the end, it's like, well, tell us about your origin story.
He talks about the high school reunion and he said, you know, and Andrea is my non-technical founder.
5:10
And when I heard that I was so angry because at this point we had been working together for three years.
I had, I had learned to code, I had worked on production projects with him.
And I was like, what do I have to do?
5:30
Seriously.
Like how dare you say I'm non-technical?
What do I have to do?
Do I have to get a computer science degree?
Do I have to like take a test and get some kind of certification?
Do I have to change my gender because I don't look like the people?
5:46
Like, what is it that I have to do to be technical enough in your eyes?
And Scott is very calm and like, just listen to me rant.
And at the end, he said I listened very intently because we had a sales meeting right before I recorded that podcast.
6:06
And so I paid attention to how you describe yourself and I tried my best to say verbatim what you say.
So when you call yourself technical, that's when I'll call you technical.
And it was like mind blow.
6:24
And then I had to go through all of this like exploration of like, why don't I call myself technical?
And I wrote about this on LinkedIn and it blew up.
And just this is an area where it's like soft skill, hard skill and all of these things.
6:39
And what was interesting to me was that I was struggling with this identity, but Scott was also struggling with what I think is the flip side of it, which is I'm good with machines and I suck with people.
And to me, I was like, that doesn't make any sense to me because you're one of the kindest, most compassionate people I know.
6:58
I wouldn't have married you otherwise.
Like, how in the world do you think you're bad with people?
And there is all this cultural expectations and like, so it has been just a whirlwind over the past, you know, 1520 years around exploring this topic.
7:17
And my goal was because Scott was saying, I think like a programmer and my, my emphasis is in empathic communication and how it drives results and how it reduces technical debt, right?
And I was like, well, I think about empathy in the same way that you think about code.
7:37
How do I articulate that?
Because I think his, you know, as I started speaking at conferences about this, you know, the big thing is that empathy is also is often expressed as this sentiment of just, it's being nice to people.
7:53
It's all, or it's a psychic ability where I can walk into a room and kind of know how you feel.
And the more I learned about this, I realized that I had always identified as an empath.
But really what I was doing was I was operating out of hubris a lot of the time because I would say, oh, I know how you feel better than you do, right.
8:15
So in my attempt to, to really help Scott and and help myself, it's this question like, what is empathy?
Because I had known it in terms of like, OK, there's myself, there's someone else, the customer, you know, the employee that you're writing a handbook for, like whatever that is in terms of business communication.
8:39
So I need to understand my message.
I need to understand what their needs are.
And then I need to take that perspective and align them in a way that messaging so that we can actually achieve the outcomes that we're looking for.
So to me, that's why empathy was so critical.
And as I started learning more about like what empathy is, just putting it in terms of metaphors.
9:02
So for example, active listening, right, in all of the protocols, like the HTTP that you see in front of your website, right?
The way that that runs is what's called a three-way handshake, right?
So information gets sent and then it's received.
9:20
And then the receiver is like, hey, this is the information I got.
And then, you know, it's like, Yep, that's it.
I'm like, that's active listening.
That's right.
If we're talking about like the steps of it, that's what it is.
And you know, if you're playing a game of charades, there's different, you know, Internet protocols.
9:39
So if you're gaming playing a game of charades, that's more like UDP, which is streaming music, right?
I'm just putting information out and I don't have to double check that everything was received exactly as it was intended.
And so being able to frame things in, you already know about this stuff.
9:57
It just hasn't been presented in this way.
And as I started learning that and really trying to, you know, articulate that, a lot of people really resonated with this and a lot of software developers were like, Oh my gosh, I feel seen.
10:14
I feel heard because so many times when I'm like, I don't understand, the response is either, well, you knew what I meant or, you know, stop splitting hairs.
It's just semantics.
And so many people felt dismissed by people who identified as empaths.
10:34
And again, this, I'm like eating a huge piece of humble pie, 'cause I, you know, so I think to me, the empathy and tech really came out of all of that experience.
And just, we need to demystify this thing because it's so important.
10:51
Like this is, you know, empathy from all of the work that I've done, the way I've learned to understand it is that empathy is what humans have evolved to help us in species survival.
11:07
It helps us communicate.
It helps us find creative solutions to problems, right?
It helps us organize ourselves into social groups.
It helps and you know, this is how we survive.
We find problems, we work together as a hyper social species to come up with a creative solution to it.
11:29
We can't do that without empathy.
That's why so much of our brain is dedicated to language and like emotions and feeling and all of these different things.
It's all very related to empathy, but just knowing, knowing what it was and just thinking about more in terms of a system and infrastructure and mechanics.
11:49
So that's where I'm really passionate right now is, you know, empathy and tech really, it's on a mission to, you know, help the world understand empathy in a more technical way, but then also bring empathy in to the technology sphere.
12:05
Because so many people have just said, oh, I'm not good at this.
And that's not right.
So it's it's the double prong approach, so.
Yeah, there's definitely like a misunderstanding or like a myth about empathy is it's empathy and tag.
12:25
They don't work together.
Like there's like a very common myth.
People just don't connect the 2 with each other.
And I feel like your work in this field is just like, like you mentioned, it makes technical people feel seen and heard.
Otherwise it's just so difficult to communicate for I'm using air quotes here and non-technical and technical people.
12:48
So how can we connect these two populations?
Because we have to work together.
Yeah.
Are we going to work together, you know?
Yeah.
And I can tell you, like I'll tell you another story that was hugely insightful because here's the thing, when you understand empathy and you approach some of these communication challenges from this perspective, it changes everything.
13:09
And this is the core of our creative problem solving.
So, you know, like, many people, right?
I'm sure this is a very common experience.
You know, Scott and I were working in the same room.
He had his headphones in.
I really needed to talk to him about an urgent client issue.
13:27
I was trying to figure out, OK, how do I respectfully interrupt him?
Like, I really need him.
So I kind of tiptoed over and, like, waved my hand and was kind of sheepish.
And I was like, you got a SEC?
And he nearly flipped the table.
13:44
It was like, right.
And I think a lot of us have seen these kinds of responses.
And at that moment, like he, he snapped at me and was like, well, I do now.
And so at that moment, I had a choice, right?
I could either rage quit, be like, this isn't working.
14:04
I can't.
I can't with you if you can't answer a basic question that no one else in the that I've ever worked with has a problem with, you know, or I could lean in and say, no, I'm, I'm gonna figure out what what's going on here.
14:21
And so that's what I did.
I took a deep breath and he said, I don't know what happened, but I clearly did something to offend you and I care about you and I don't want this to happen again.
And I'm gonna have to interrupt you in order for this business to work.
14:39
So, you know, what was it?
I, I care, right?
And so starting from that place of compassion.
And Scott took a deep breath and was like, you know, that movie, Inception, Chris, the Christopher Nolan movie.
14:55
Had just come out.
There's this.
Scene where, you know, there's two people and you know they're in a dream and they're sitting at a cafe in Paris.
And then all of a sudden one of the characters realizes they're in a dream and the whole city starts folding in on itself and everything comes crashing.
15:15
He said in order for me to do my job, I have to build elaborate Crystal Palace mental models in my mind.
And I have been trying to suss out and work on this problem for three hours.
And I was so close to figuring it out.
15:31
And when you asked me the question, you got a SEC.
I didn't know how to answer it because I know a second is not a second.
And so it's like, is this a 2 minute?
The answer is this 20 minutes, right?
How how likely is it for me to get back?
15:48
So the cognitive load that he had to carry to even answer that question it he said, I experienced that like my whole mental model just came collapsing down just like it did in the streets of Paris in that movie.
And then I understood, I was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea that that was what was going on in his mind.
16:11
But then once I knew and I had that data, I was like, well, how do we solve this problem?
And so we collaborated together and like figured stuff out and like, what do you need?
What do I need?
And eventually we came up with, well, what if we just said inception?
And if like that's what I'll text you instead of you got a SEC or that's what I'll send you and you just give a number.
16:34
If it's zero, then awesome, you're available.
Now.
If it's a 5, then you're like, it's OK.
Expect that I'm not gonna be able to talk to you for a while, but you know that I need you.
This was magical.
It was so game changing.
But the only way that we could get there was by understanding each other's perspective and demonstrating that we cared about each other.
16:55
And it was all of these kinds of small moments that really LED up to things.
And I think that's where there's so much opportunity.
And the more different the perspective, the more innovative the ideas.
17:13
I love that.
Yeah, you, I, I really resonate with that.
My boyfriend is also a programmer and I feel you just described a different version of.
It's a very common experience, yeah.
Yeah, I spent so much time trying to communicate better and better, and I think we're getting there.
17:33
But the work it takes, really, it takes empathy from both people.
And then when you apply, when you apply that to an organization, you know, you can imagine how much work and how much care you have to put into it in order to make it work for your team, really.
17:51
Yeah, yeah.
And I think, like, you know, there's a misconception, the empathy and compassion, it's like, oh, it's just this fluffy feely nice to have.
Like compassion is caring.
Like, if I can swear, like just giving a shit about somebody's feels and not wanting to make it worse, right?
18:13
And saying, OK, well, how can I help, like make you less miserable?
Like compassion is a motivation construct.
Jamil Zaki is a great researcher out at Stanford, and he's got the motivated theory of empathy.
And that's really what this is, is that we don't empathize the same way all the time.
18:30
The context that we are and who we're empathizing with, like, you know, the amount of stress that we're carrying, like that has so much to do with how we respond, whether or not we respond with empathy or not, more so than like a, you know, individual attribute.
18:49
Like whether or not you're born with empathy.
He shows that it's a skill, It's something that you can develop.
It's something that you can learn to be motivated by.
And I think that that's so empowering.
And I think that's really where there's there's a lot of opportunity too.
So, you know, for me, I started really speaking around empathy as a technical skill that is one that like a lot of conferences liked.
19:13
And, you know, just really approaching it from this, like, let's just look at what it is in terms of mechanics.
And the great thing is that over the past 10 years, there's been just so much amazing research, especially in the field of neuroscience, that's giving us answers and insights that we could never have had before.
19:34
Because as humans, we're not really good at figuring out why we behave the way we behave.
We rationalize a lot.
And so we've been able to get some more objective understandings and some more empirical findings around what is this thing and how can we, you know?
19:52
And that's where a lot of the demystifying and, you know, debunking has come from, which I think is so exciting.
It's really cool.
Yeah, Yeah, I think it would be just so cool.
Like if and when there is a time when we 100% understand how empathy works and how can we practice it, You know, like everyone has different level of empathy.
20:14
But like you said, it's more than just a sentiment.
I think people need to act on it.
People need to practice and actually kind of apply this skill set at work and in life in general.
So I guess my follow up question is you shared with me you know about your scale method before and I would love to invite you to perhaps share a little bit more about how scale works and how does it connect to empathy?
20:50
Yeah, Yeah.
So, you know, Scott and I exited last summer our, you know, the software company that we ran for 15 years.
And so I've had this opportunity to kind of move to exploring the next phase of my career.
21:06
And so now it's like, OK, I really want to double down and help organizations understand this.
And so one of the things that, you know, I experienced as a business owner, we grew to a team of about 25.
21:23
And it was so hard.
And there were some very specific points along the way that, you know, having to change the way I think or like, completely unlearn things that I had learned.
So, you know, scale is really this, it's, it's a framework for what are the different things that I had to learn to cross what in the business world is described as the valley of death phase of growing a business.
21:56
That's literally, you can look it up on Investopedia.
That's the that is the terminology and that was absolutely how I felt.
And it's this phase between when you are generating revenue and, you know, your product market fit, but when you have a sustainable business, right?
22:14
And that's where most businesses die, like, and we have, and we have so much emphasis on the finding it, you know, figuring out what you want to do and the pitch competition's all important.
We have a lot of like once you're a manager and once you've got a sustainable business, how do you lead teams?
22:33
There is like not a lot during this phase.
Yeah.
So, so really it came out of that.
And so, you know, it's an acronym.
I'm just going to pull pull it up real quick.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
22:51
Scale is a systems capacity alignment.
That was it.
And empathy.
I've got it now.
So OK, so systems, right?
So this is about creating structure without creating rigidity.
So when we think about structure, especially in a business, it is, you know, how do we, you know, create something where we're making progress, but we're not instituting all this bureaucracy and all these impediments, right?
23:21
And so, you know, an example, you know, of a system that we implemented like is the inception framework, right?
OK, When I want to interrupt you, I am going to do so in this way.
23:36
That is a system that is a protocol that we're agreeing on so that we can work together more effectively, right.
So the best systems are the ones that are Co created instead of being imposed on.
23:53
And you can get inspired by other systems and methodologies.
There's so many different frameworks out there, but you know, at its core, it's how do we create the, you know, conditions that are agreed upon where we can interact in a way that is functional, right?
24:11
And whether or not we're interacting with our our Co workers or, you know, the tools that we have or, you know, our customers, whatever it is, there's so many different interactions.
But really figuring out the right kind of structure for that capacity is how do we prevent burnout so that we can sustain momentum.
24:34
And this is both on a personal like level and also on an organizational level, because as individuals, we need to recognize how big of a role stress plays.
You know, I was hearing, you know, it came across a statistic today from someone at Harvard who studies stress and it was about that 70% of people today are operating from chronic stress in the workplace.
25:08
And that is detrimental because then we don't show up as our best self.
We can't problem solve, you know, and when it comes to empathy, like when our stress response is activated, we become self focused.
25:26
We we like physiologically and neurologically cannot take another person's perspective.
So being able to recognize our own capacity to be able to communicate when we're not well resourced, right?
Like, so something huge that's personal, being able to describe, like, I am struggling to think about this right now because, you know, I've got this other thing.
25:53
And the more aligned and the more of, you know, we create these conditions where people can share about what their capacity is.
They don't necessarily have to share all the details of their private life, but how, how is that impacting your ability to show up?
26:10
And as managers and as leaders, how do we recognize that the the more data that we can get.
And like, when people are able to share about what is impacting their capacity, you know, that's a lot where you're getting operational effectiveness because people know what is frustrating.
26:31
They can tell you right in front of you.
And being able to solve those challenges right away is important.
The next one is alignment, which is about clarifying goals and miscommunication.
So this gets to the critical importance of mission vision, core values.
26:50
And the way that I define those is the mission is like what is the thing we're trying to accomplish?
The vision is what does the world look like once we've accomplished it?
And that helps create the emotional connection for why should we even bother trying to do this thing.
27:06
And then core values are how will we agree to behave while we are achieving our mission?
So when it comes to core values and things like that, I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see with businesses is that they often conflate an outcome with a value.
27:26
So I see, so innovation is a great one, right?
Innovation is an outcome.
Innovation is something that you get when you've created the conditions for people to effectively collaborate and have these really interesting collisions of ideas, right?
27:43
Then it then innovation happens, but to tell people to behave innovatively like, you know, something else would be more like, you know, approach, you know, new ideas with curiosity, right?
28:00
Just.
And so those are the types of things where it's like this.
It's almost a statement or a mantra of a tagline like here is how we will behave while we are doing this.
And then even, you know, a few sentences that give context, I think that those things are so, so, so powerful.
28:21
And then also communicating, where are we going?
You know, where have we been?
How do we know what success looks like?
All of those important things.
And I think as a business leader, that is the hardest thing.
Like as ACEO, that was, I felt like I was trying to be clear and like I was repeating myself as more like over and over again.
28:41
And, you know, you never feel like it's enough.
So, yeah.
So alignment's really important.
Yeah, I mean the soft skill, right?
People think soft communication, soft skill.
It's not.
It's a hard, hard skill.
28:57
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I think there's so much that goes into it from a mechanical like just process perspective.
And the more we can get good about it, like the better we'll be.
Leadership is the next one, which is learning how to improve systems without controlling people.
29:17
The way I think of a leader is anybody who steps outside of their own experience and takes on the perspective of someone else and then figures out how can we improve the way we work together or the way we communicate.
That is a leader.
29:32
So it's, it has nothing to do with role.
It has to do with perspective taking and ownership, like where I'm recognizing that I'm part of this communication breakdown.
You know.
How can we work together?
Like how can I understand what you need?
29:48
How can I?
And you're negotiating a better way of working.
If you're doing that, then you're a leader.
And then it's just a matter of how many people you're trying to do that with, right?
And then empathy, which is about how do we mobilize groups through human connections so that we can do that creative problem solving.
30:07
So to me, those were some of the things where it was like, you know, mind blowing, you know, how, how do we do that?
So, and over the years, there's just been so many frameworks that have made sense to me, you know, around how do we create productive conflict?
30:25
That's another one around and, and a lot of these frameworks, their, their empathy is really at the center.
So with productive conflict, it's a cycle of restore and explore.
So I don't know about you right now.
30:40
I am in a place where I need a lot of restorative time because I'll put myself out there and it's just like, Oh my gosh.
Like a small interaction can be really energy draining, right?
I have to protect my capacity.
Yep.
30:56
And you do that in a lot of hits, like different people have different things.
But a big way we do that is through affinity.
We find like minded people and that helps us feel not alone and it helps us feel like we've got us some people on.
But if we stay and we only hang out with the people that think like us, you know, have the same values as we, we don't get that collision of ideas that we had.
31:19
Like what I was talking about with God, where I was like, you know, you're different from me, so therefore I won't work with you.
We once we, once we're restored, we have to go out and learn about other people's perspectives.
31:35
We have to have the courage and the capacity to, and the curiosity to say, OK, I, I want to learn about your experience and I want to figure out where there's common ground and where we can find ways to collaborate with each other.
31:50
And that is really hard when we're under resourced and when we're not regulated.
So, you know, that's why I'm like, it's a cycle because you go out and you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm now stressed out.
I have to go back and restore again.
But you know, make sure you don't stay in that place 'cause otherwise things are too stagnant.
32:10
Yeah, I agree.
And I really think, you know, when you say we restore and then we can go out and again and just to learn from other people and work with other people, it, it just kind of shows without kind of prior, without prioritizing ourselves, it's, it would be impossible to do what we really want to do, like say, make an impact, right?
32:33
Like improve systems or build new systems.
Without that restoration, especially in times like these, everyone is running around all the time.
We wouldn't be productive at all.
So thank you for sharing.
32:50
You know, the scale framework and from my perspective, you know, I, I study intersectionality and I think scale is one of a holistic system or like a holistic framework.
It focuses on multiple things.
It's not individualistic.
33:06
It's it's it's, it's a network basically.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of the things like, that's where my brain naturally works and where, you know, all of the different programs that I'm coming up with and ways to really integrate empathy into.
33:25
How do we actually mobilize people to get stuff done right?
That's like, I am so driven by impact and it's like, all right, we got some big problems to solve.
How do we get everybody to work together?
33:41
And that doesn't mean we all get along, but how do we become productive so that we can come up with these great ideas and we can actually, like, solve these problems?
And that's not gonna happen when we're bickering.
That's not gonna happen when we're exhausted and infighting.
Like, how can we understand what we're working with and move past some of those things?
33:59
So, yeah, So all of the work and frameworks and programs that I'm putting together, that's naturally how I'm thinking about things.
It's, I love that word holistic 'cause that's exactly where it is.
And then it's also looking at there's individual responsibility, but there's also like organizational responsibility.
34:15
One of my favorite quotes is from West Edwards Demings.
And it's a bad system will beat a good person every time.
And like, you can be the most empathetic person, but if you are in a culture or a system that doesn't support your efforts, like you're gonna have a really, really hard time, which is why, yes, we need to focus on interpersonal skills.
34:42
We also need to focus on the organizational systems that support people.
So that's culture, that's operations, that's all of that stuff that it typically is, you know, oh, that's the hard stuff, right?
But it, it really makes a difference in terms of how well people can show up and how well they can regulate.
35:04
So.
Yeah, it definitely needs to be systemic.
And so we talked about empathy and empathy in tag and then we expanded it a little bit to scale.
And I know you have again, using the word holistic, you have a system in your practice that helps you know people to communicate better, to collaborate better and build better cultures.
35:31
And what I learned is there are six programs to help with that and includes creating agile culture, collaborative communications again and scale with chaos, productive conflict.
35:47
You mentioned that already, technical empathy and then leading through change.
So I think these six components, these six kind of programs, yeah, work together.
Could you tell a little bit more about how do you make them work together?
36:02
Yeah.
So I think, you know, the biggest thing is that recognizing that these are all starting points, right?
So like the best way to implement things like this, it, it's really demonstrating kind of what's the challenge you're looking through.
36:19
So like the leading through change, for example, that's really for, you know, more executives where it's like, I don't know how to make decisions right now because everything is so volatile.
I made this like, for example, right now there's tariff challenges, right?
So like, I made this big order and now in order for my stock to get off the boat, I have to pay 1 1/2 times of what I placed the order for.
36:43
Like, how do I even make business decisions through that?
How do I navigate when when just everything is so dynamic and it's changing so fast, right?
You know, that is an example of like, OK, you can't come in as a consultant and say, I know, here's how you do it.
37:05
Here's the framework.
Boom, we're done.
Like it's really about understanding someone like, OK, here's the challenge you're facing.
You know, what is the challenge in front of you?
And then, you know, giving tools and very practical, like here's something that you can try to implement.
37:24
So when you're in this situation, you have a tool in your tool belt that you can try to use, right?
So it's really about equipping people with different frameworks and tools and communication systems so that they can think differently.
37:44
But yeah, I believe strongly the consultant never has all the answers.
And like it's less about telling people how to do and it's more about asking the right questions.
So, yeah, so for me, the the programs that I've created are really based on those, you know, experiences that I've had from being ACEO, from leading, you know, large organizations and seeing this communication really have a huge positive impact at scale.
38:09
But then also working with startup founders and things like that and, and really addressing that Valley of Death phase because I think it's so underserved and we can't afford as a society to let great ideas die.
38:26
Like, like there are so many amazing people who know how to solve problems and, you know, helping them understand that there are functional challenges that, you know, are are workable.
38:43
But a lot of times I know for me it was like, well, I'm a bad leader or like, I can't do this.
And it was, I had so much imposter syndrome or things.
And so being able to recognize like, OK, where's an individual skill that I can develop, but then also where is a systemic thing that I need to navigate around or I need to influence or change.
39:05
And so to me, it's really like, OK, we're getting ready to go through the valley of death.
Like, let me be the person who's gone through this desert.
And I know I can help you figure out some of those oases where it's like, OK, you can stop and rest.
Or here's where there's water or you need to pack these different things Because, you know, there are so many, so many people who just have such good intentions.
39:32
They are so talented.
They are so skilled, and you know, when we have the tools for effective communication not just with the people who agree with us, but for the people who are skeptical of our idea.
39:49
Like.
Learning from that, finding ways to collaborate, like that's where we get real traction.
And so that's what motivates me to, you know, work with different people in a variety of different ways and just helping people solve problems.
I think there's just that's what we need right now and that's what people are craving.
40:07
And I know that's what I want to see.
I'm like, let's let's shift into solution mode and and.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree with you.
People are hungry for IT.
People are ready for IT.
People want tools.
People want to be equipped with the right tools to help them navigate the the very like very chaotic systems right now.
40:31
Yeah.
So I totally agree with you.
So, and I think for me too, like just one thing is there, you know, there's a lot of people who are attacking, you know, the values of, you know, diversity and inclusion and empathy is getting put in there too.
40:47
Like there are books that are coming out around toxic empathy.
And it's like, well, actually, you're not talking about empathy, right?
So the more that we understand what some of these things are, the more we're able to engage in discussions with people who are also criticizing our work and threatening the way that we are approaching things.
41:06
And some of that is, OK, yeah, maybe the way we did this wasn't quite as effective.
We can learn.
But on the whole, this is just is necessary because we can't move forward on some of these things if we don't have productive conflict.
And you can't get productive conflict unless you have diversity of perspectives.
41:24
And, you know, just like this just is right.
And let's just get to some of the mechanics of it.
And I know for me, it has been so helpful having a better understanding of just some of the research and like how this stuff just works.
41:44
That's allowed me to kind of emotionally detach when people are criticizing and like, things feel really threatening for our industries.
And just like, no, it's good communication.
And at the end of the day, it's about solving problems.
42:03
And, you know, you can sling these words around if you want, but it's not accurate, you know?
And, you know, maybe this piece is valid and I can see maybe where you got there.
So I know for me that's been a really important piece for my own ability to restore and have capacity is just feeling very anchored in the research, having a good understanding of what I'm talking about so that I can have more productive conversations with people who disagree with me.
42:38
I think that's very brave.
I mean, I try to do it, but I don't think I'm doing a super great job right now.
But I think that's a really, really timely and important conversation.
We just had, Andrea, is empathy and how do we practice it and how do we apply that to leadership?
42:59
You know, you don't have to be ACEO to be a leader.
You could be a project manager and you can lead.
You can be a community person and then you can lead your community through trying times through, like you mentioned, collaborative communications, productive conflicts.
43:17
We can all have these very meaningful conversations and figure out together.
So I'm really appreciative of that.
So thank you and I want to invite you to share your like website, contact information and you mentioned you are a keynote speaker.
43:38
Yeah.
So how do people find you, work with you, invite to speak, etcetera?
Thank you.
Yeah.
So Andrea goulet.com is the, you know, website that has all the different programs.
That's the fastest way to get in touch with me to, you know, learn more about speaking, kind of engage me as an individual.
43:57
And then my company, Lovelace Communications, that once we've got kind of one of those programs off the ground, you know, I, I describe it as the spark phase where we're, you know, getting people to think differently.
But then also, I've got such an amazing network of people who can then move into systemizing some of these insights.
44:21
So once you have the spark, right, like there's only so much that can be done, but we then bring it into the operations.
And I have a whole amazing team of people that I bring in on that.
And then we scale it.
So we build these, we, we engage people in terms of solving those problems that are right in front of them, like introducing them to the productive conflict framework, helping them like identify opportunities to make genuine improvements.
44:53
And then when we figure out what's working, we bring it to the rest of the organization.
And so that's kind of the differentiator between like me as a, you know, hiring me as an individual and then also engaging, you know, kind of a larger project that I've got.
45:10
And so that's the Lovelace communications one.
Yeah, I'm really active on LinkedIn, so you can find me just by looking at my name.
And then you'll see like empathy driven organizations will change the world as my like banner.
So yeah.
45:26
And then also empathy and tech.
So we are now a non profit, which is very exciting.
Oh.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, Yeah.
So we are fiscally sponsored non project.
We are a fiscally sponsored project of Super Bloom design, which is just amazing.
45:42
They're such amazing people.
So we'll be doing kind of more of a formal launch.
It started as just a grass roots community and kind of a discord and we'll put some like webinars together.
And so my business partner Katie, we had gone through some different iterations.
45:59
So now she's the executive director, I'm the founder and kind of the chief mouthpiece to just talk about like how important this is.
Yeah, so there's more stuff and empathy and tech podcast as well.
So you.
Can refer to that.
So yeah, my Co host Ray and I, Ray Myers, we have some great discussions both with interviewing people, but then exploring like, you know, we had one on there was a paper from the 1970s by a philosopher talking about techno ethics.
46:27
And so reading that pepper and like, OK, this was written in the 1970s, but how important is it today?
So like nerding out but also learning.
Yeah.
So those are some of the projects and the ways to get in touch with me.
That's a lot and that is plenty.
46:45
And thank you so much, Andrea, for all you do.
You are fabulous.
I think you are too.
Yay, fabulous together.
Yes, and.
With that, we're going to stop recording here.