"Happiness Comes From A Feeling of Purpose And Meaning," with Gil Gillenwater, on Service (aka Enlightened Self-Interest), Meditation, Spirituality, and Hope.

Zhou Fang: [00:00:00] All ready? We're rolling. Um, hello everyone. Welcome to the Intersection podcast. Uh, a program about intersectionality. Of course, the stories that come with it, and for every story there is a real person behind it. And oftentimes it's more than one person. It's a village, it's a group. Um, and today I have, .

, A guest who has really, , picked my curiosity and, uh, he and his team actually reached out to me earlier, uh, which was really a surprise actually. 'cause I didn't know, you know, my, my little program. Like, oh, I, I wanna talk with you. So that was definitely like a. Honor for me, and I'm really glad I connected with my guests.

Um, so today I'm thrilled to introduce, uh, Gil Gillenwater, [00:01:00] the founder of Rancho Felice, and also the author of Hope on the Border. Um, Gil has extensive experience working in between the US and Mexico, especially around the border area, and I will pass the mic to him to introduce himself because I feel, you know, you are the best person to tell your story and I'm just so happy you are here to, to do that.

So, welcome Gil.

Gil Gillenwater: Well, thank you very much and it's a real honor for me to be here, uh, and, and given this format where I can about what's going on at the border and how we have harnessed, uh, some of those intentions and some of those efforts to actually make the world a better place. Um, you know, Joe, when the last time you've heard any good news about our southern border? Virtually doesn't exist

Zhou Fang: remember.

Gil Gillenwater: Yeah, right. And um, I've been working down there since [00:02:00] 1987, almost four decades, and I'm here to tell you that there, there are good things going on. It's a very strange place. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona. In a mere four hour drive, I can take one step and go from $18 an hour minimum wage. Two $14 a day

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: one step. Now I've traveled all over the planet, nowhere. I mean, if you're in India, you step into Pakistan.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: not that big a deal, but the disparity of standard of living here is just, it's phenomenal. It's appalling. we've been able to do is harness this disparity into a program where we can take young adults and, and adults. We've had 28,000 volunteers come across the border. And, um, and, and serve the less fortunate, uh, and let them see how most of the world truly lives. Um, I think we were talking earlier, if you make $60,000 a year, you're in the [00:03:00] top 1% of planet Earth. We don't

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: how well we have it here. And so by taking our young adults and, and, and we, we do church groups, we do volunteer groups. Into Mexico. Let 'em see the challenges these people deal with. Understand what it's like to live down there. Um, they come back into the United States, more compassionate people. And I think actually there's a physiology to it that I'd be more than happy to discuss, uh, in this conversation where there's some physical changes take place in the brain that just make us better people. Um, I kind of got away from my story. I'm a, a Arizona native. I love Arizona and the deserts. I love the outdoors. I've traveled all over the world, and I'm here to tell you, I am convinced that the rich life that I have led is due in large, if not in total. To [00:04:00] my service work. I believe service to others opens portals into almo, and I'm not a religious guy.

Almost another dimension, a dimension of coincidence, a dimension of serendipity, a dimension of just the right thing happening at the right time. I've seen it over and over and over and, and, uh, it, it brings a real richness into my life. And also think about this. Jerks, don't volunteer. It's a great vetting program. I mean, really, you're surrounded by people with a larger vision of this world. I think, uh, and, and what just appalls me is the way that charity has been presented to, to us, that it's a sacrifice. When I have a left leftover money, I have leftover time, and I always think of a group of guys sitting around watching a football game, drinking a beer, and the game's over, and somebody says, well.

What do you guys wanna do now? Guy across the room. Pipes up. Oh, I got a great idea. Let's go. Sacrifice. [00:05:00] It isn't going to happen. It just isn't. But if people understand the reality of this situ situation, that they are in service, and what I think this comes back is the same thing that I have found in my meditation practices. Think about the service transaction itself. You know, if you're walking down the street and there's somebody in front of you with a stack of books and a paper falls out, what is your first inclination?

Zhou Fang: I wanna go help them pick it up.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes. Before you have a chance to think, oh, do I know these people? Is it safe? Blah, blah, blah. Your very first inclination is to help. It's in our nature. Now, I want you to think about something else. Say you're, you're driving to work and there's a guy trying to get into traffic, and he's trying to get into traffic, and all of a sudden he cuts in front of you and. You son of a gun. How could you do that to me? Have you ever noticed that anger forces us to love [00:06:00] ourselves? could you do that to me? Well, the fact of the matter is the guy didn't do it to you. He's late for work. Has nothing to do with

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: Don't flatter

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: But the other, the other option you have is to recognize him as a fellow human, trying to get into traffic. Slow down. Wave him in. Look him in the eye.

And you have that moment of recognition that the, the recognition and acknowledgement of our shared humanity. You wave him in, he waves back to you. How do you physiologically feel? It's a ah,

Zhou Fang: Yeah, it's calm.

Gil Gillenwater: instead of this rage, instead of this energy going up higher and higher in your body. It is a centering. Ah, and it is my contention that moment when your mind is relaxed, that you have created space as you do in meditation [00:07:00] for. God, spirit, whatever you wanna call

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: to come, to come into your life. Now, scientists have learned and have taught us that when we are in service to others, we, uh, the left side of our brain.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: And your base happiness is the left side of your brain, uh, level to the right side. It's that, uh, comparison. And when you're in service long enough. It stays there, it stays elevated. In other words, you become a consistently happier person. This has been proven, and gosh, why wouldn't you, you know, if I got a choice here. want to go through life miserable. I want to go through life relatively happy and enjoy this one time that I have here.

I'm gonna choose doing whatever it takes to make my life happy. And therein lies the big paradox. 'cause what we've been told in [00:08:00] America, it's a new car, it's a new wife, it's a bigger

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: And uh, yeah, those are all great little band-aids, but they don't do the job. In fact, most of the time they have quite the opposite effect.

I, I see it firsthand. I live in a bubble here in Scottsdale, Arizona. Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: after I say this is we drive really slowly.

Gil Gillenwater: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: like oftentimes what I really want people to do is please drive and, and.

Gil Gillenwater: Yeah. Yeah.

Zhou Fang: So it's like the opposite problem, you know, when you have a lot of people kind of trying to cut in or trying to switch lanes suddenly, uh, which I experienced in California quite a bit.

[00:09:00] Um, but whenever someone's driving so slowly, like my mind will just be like, oh. Please come on. Just move. And that's not calm, that's actually, it's very agitating and elevating as well. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, from the, your analogy makes me think about, you know, maybe I should be more patient when people are just taking their time.

And of course if you drive too slowly, it's not necessarily safe either. But I feel like. I have some inner work to do, just to be like, you know what, you are not rushing to anywhere. You have time. So give it, give it a second and then you'll get there.

Gil Gillenwater: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: Um, so we, so I, I'm very curious about your. You've been doing volunteer work at Rancho Felice [00:10:00] for almost 40 years now.

Started in 1987 and we chatted a little bit before, is that a lot of people see Rancho Felice as. An institution to serve, uh, American people, uh, sorry, Mexican people or non-American people. And oftentimes that puts people off, especially now, um, given the environment we are in. So I'm curious to learn from your perspective, you know, you're talking about service, you're talking about, um, help other people.

Um, can you share. In addition to helping folks from the other side of the border, how does Rancho Felice serve American people and make, make America or make American people better?

Gil Gillenwater: Yes. Well, that's, you. You bring up a really, really good point because a [00:11:00] lot of times people say, oh, Rancho Felice, it's a charity down, works on the border, and the off switch goes on.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: uh, everything, everything I'm seeing on television, Mexicans are trying to come into our country illegally and they're a threat and blah, blah, blah. And um, my contention is that there are two very real types of poverty in the world. One is the poverty I encounter down on the border where you have. People living in dirt floored shacks. Not enough to eat, no roof over their head. But there's an equally insidious poverty where I live right here in Scottsdale, Arizona, and it's a poverty of purpose. It's a poverty of meaning. And I really feel bad for young people growing up in our society of YouTube influencers and all the stuff that, look what we pay our entertainers just to entertain us, our football players to entertain us. [00:12:00] Is that what life is being entertained? Well, I tell you what, if you wanna go down that road, you are not gonna be a happy camper. Doesn't work that way. Happiness comes from a feeling of purpose, a feeling of of of meaning, a feeling when you're laying on your deathbed. You know what?

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: I made a difference in this world, and that's what we have to offer. And in that respect, we're quite fortunate because again, you'd have to travel halfway around the world to encounter the stark poverty that I can drive to four hours from Scottsdale, Arizona. And so I see it for some reason, Joe, I played football in college and every time I'd be given the ball, it was my job to get it as far down the field as I could. And I kind of feel that way, um, for what my fate has been in, um, creating a more enlightened society, um, [00:13:00] creating a place where people are a little kinder to each other, where people, there's not that hard, hard boundary between me and you.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: this recognition. Wow, we're all in this together and the truth be known, none of us really know what the hell we're doing here. And you are. I almost think it's a sin if you don't find out for yourself what truly brings you joy in life if you think it's gonna be things. Let me give you this analogy.

It's like, uh, our. five senses, how we, it's too hot or too cold. I'm too hungry or I'm too full. These are our five senses and they're how we interpret our world. And if we, if we try to find our happiness through our five senses, can only find a happiness that's relative to our sadness. And by that I

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: If you're too hot, it's like a thermostat. And, and so the, you [00:14:00] turn down the air conditioning and it goes and it goes and it passes, you know, 74 degrees and then it gets too cold and it kicks back on. And then it comes back there. That's how, so it's the, the, um. The relative duality, uh, is, is what is kind of a rat race, where you're gonna be caught in there.

Um, they call it samsara Eastern philosophy. And, uh, my contention is that when we are in service to others, we enter a joy we, that is not relative to our sadness, it's relative to our existence. We make the world a better place. We have the power change the trajectory of a person's entire life. power. And we do that through education. We have funded over 4,000 scholarships. Uh, we've issued over 6,000 and, uh, adult education scholarships. [00:15:00] Um, the, I, we have one of our, one of our young man who was born in a dirt floor check now, and I kid you not. Is working for Rolls Royce in Berlin,

Zhou Fang: Oh,

Gil Gillenwater: I mean,

Zhou Fang: wow.

Gil Gillenwater: story. know, some of these little kids, you can see 'em, they just, they, they're sponges and if you don't get 'em by the time they're five or six years old, it's almost too late.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: But if you can get 'em, and we have childcare centers where we work on the right side of the brain, uh, consistent with the left side of the brain, and we have all kinds of educational programs.

And these kids, their minds are like sponges. And so we really, we really, uh. Press on educating

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: Um, we really feel that's the way, and predominantly, like Melinda Gates, you wanna change the world to educate the women

Zhou Fang: Uh, yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: a hard one to argue with.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. 'cause I was curious about the kind of like examples [00:16:00] that, um, coming that are coming from, uh, Rancho Felice and you just provided an excellent, one of this young person now, you know, working on greater project. Uh.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes.

Zhou Fang: and you mentioned you did have like programs designed for young women, right?

Gil Gillenwater: Yes, yes. Um, you know, the border states of Mexico, it's a pretty macho culture.

Zhou Fang: Right.

Gil Gillenwater: is.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: and most of these people from that socioeconomic, uh, strata, they can't afford. A marriage certificate. So most of 'em aren't married, I would say well over half of 'em, the father has gone. There is no father.

The

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: raising the children on their own. There's maybe 4, 5, 6 kids. The older children have to be pulled outta school to watch the younger children so mom can get a job. And the maquila door, which is another subject I'd like to talk

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: and, um, but in, in [00:17:00] ATA, 50%. Of the girls that, um, go into high school or high school age drop out within the first year,

Zhou Fang: Hmm,

Gil Gillenwater: 50% is predominantly because a mother cannot afford the $300, uh, tuition

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: it takes to keep that child in school.

So what we have done is we call it Bright futures. It's a group of ladies here out of Scottsdale and Desert Mountain who have come together. they take on a class every year and we have something like, the last statistic I saw was like a, a 94% graduation from university, which is absolutely unheard of.

None of these children, parents even went to high

Zhou Fang: Right.

Gil Gillenwater: And, and, and if you, we we give them, um, the iPads and most importantly, Joe, and this is what I think is so interesting. We just pay attention to 'em. attention starved, and if [00:18:00] they know the gringos and we carry a lot of weight being gringo, know the gringos are watching their grades.

And these, these women have retreats and they get to know the young girls. And we bring in Mexican, uh, female professionals who have made it, who have worked through the barrios and made success out of their lives. Example, you can do this, it can be done. We have. Girls have to wait for mom to get home from the factory at one in the morning so they can use her cell phone to do their homework. I mean, it, it's, it's crazy and, uh, it's wrong. The, the wealth inequity, I'm sorry, but it is wrong that, that I can sit here and go to these football games in these venues and these. Vacations and everything, and right across the line, they don't have the basic

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: the statistic. Do you know what Americans spent last year on pet clothing?

Zhou Fang: No.

Gil Gillenwater: You are never gonna get it. It's [00:19:00] $5 billion. Do you know how many years of high school education, $5 billion would fund million years of high school education for what we spent humanizing our dogs.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: why can't we humanize our humans just on the other side of that fence? I mean, it's, it's, it's embarrassing to

Zhou Fang: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I, I get that people love their pets and, um, animals. I, I do agree. I feel there is a line between taking care of the animals and overindulgent.

Gil Gillenwater: Yeah, and I'm not picking on pet owners. I think it's wonderful. They keep their pets warm. I really do. That's not the end. I'm working on. I'm working. If you're gonna do that, then why don't you come on and, you know, give a, give a little bit of money to help educate some of these children who, here's the thing that they, that [00:20:00] always strikes my volunteers when they go down. The difference between. The volunteer and the person, uh, down there, the people live there is luck. It's just

Zhou Fang: Yeah,

Gil Gillenwater: line luck or bad luck, however you want to phrase it. so no, I'm not picking

Zhou Fang: I agree.

Gil Gillenwater: with pets and clothings. I, I think it's wonderful. I, I love animals and we should take care of animals. I get it. I just wanna show the contrast

Zhou Fang: Definitely.

Gil Gillenwater: decide is important and what's not.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I totally go ahead.

Gil Gillenwater: me. I'm

Zhou Fang: Oh, no, go ahead. You go ahead.

Gil Gillenwater: it's empathic. I call it empathic blindness.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I, I do agree. I think our materialistic society has gone really far in terms of consuming and buying in the name of, um, self-care or. Or care or love. Um, I do agree. I [00:21:00] think there is a blurry line and people may have different opinions about it. I do agree, you know, everything, like, everything moderate, even moderate itself.

Right? Like, and I, I also agree. I think the fact that. You are, you and I are having this conversation, um, on this side of the world. Um, just in general, you know, we talk about global North and global South. The fact that you and I are just somehow ended up in the global north, that is luck. Um, yeah. Yeah, I really agree.

And I do think. It is a very humbling experience if we are able to reflect on it,

Gil Gillenwater: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: um, instead of just keep going every day. Just autopilot.[00:22:00]

Gil Gillenwater: and pretend it's not there. Once you've seen it, you can't pretend it's not there. That's why we use the open eyes as one of our logos. The the eyes you always see are the Buddha eyes over, uh, in Asia

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: because our eyes are open. Once we've seen it, we can't pretend we didn't see it.

Zhou Fang: I agree. And I, since you mentioned, you know, with open eyes, um, I want to ask you, perhaps this is a double question, how your spiritual practice, which I, I learned that it's a combination of Eastern and Western spirituality practice. That's guided you in your life work, which also, you know, led to your, um, authoring your book Hope on the Border.

So if you'd like to share that.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes. Um, I got interested early on [00:23:00] for some reason in the mind how the mind works. Um, somebody told me once in the arena of the mind, what you believe to be true is, and think about that. I mean, it's true. We have a lot more. Uh, control over our existence, uh, through control of our minds. But we have to study.

Most people know how to work their iPhones much more than they have to work their own minds. And, um, I think one of the things that we have to do is unclutter our brains. And by that I mean. Through meditation. And I'm not a Buddhist, I don't like labels. Once you label me a Buddhist, it tells you everything.

I'm not,

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: why do we have to have these labels? Any, uh, you know, Krishnamurti said anytime you, you, uh, draw a line, you create division,

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: it's so true. One of these days we're gonna hey, we're all on this planet together. [00:24:00] Um. It's like two captains on a ship fighting over, you know who's gonna, who's gonna be the captain?

And the ship's got a, a leak and is sinking, and here they are fighting. In the meantime, the ship sinks. I kind of see that as happening on our own, our own planet.

Zhou Fang: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: you know, we, we've got bigger problems, um, to deal with than what's occupying most of our time and money. But anyway, I didn't mean to get off on that. I did want to get. across that I truly believe meditation, just being quiet

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Gil Gillenwater: and watching, there's no trick to it. You're, you're not gonna, people say, oh, I can't meditate. I can't stop thinking. Nobody can stop thinking, where, where did that crazy idea come from? Here's the thing with you. If you watch your thoughts and you don't empower them, all of a sudden a switch is gonna go off in your mind. That you don't have to believe everything you [00:25:00] think. you know how liberating that is? And that you have a choice how you want to respond. Is that guy really cutting in trap, doing that to you? No, he is not doing it to me. He's doing it because he is late, and so it allows us, I believe, a clear view. The other thing that happens in meditation, it, it grinds down the rough edges between me and you.

Zhou Fang: Right.

Gil Gillenwater: The hardening of the concepts I call it, um, that we are so different and, you know, um, do you have time for a little story?

Zhou Fang: this time is for you.

Gil Gillenwater: yeah, I was in, uh, KA Mandu and there's a guy, chokey Nema Che, and I got an audience with him and there was five of us, and there were only four chairs and we were sitting down and he kind of motioned over for me.

He said, would you mind grabbing [00:26:00] another? he's pointing and pointing at it, and I'm thinking, oh, he just can't remember the word in English. I said, chair. He looked at me, he goes, is that what it is? I said, yeah, it's the chair. He goes, well, wow. Tell me what part of that is the chair? Is it the four legs? Is it the seat, is it the back? Is that the chair? No, no, no. I said it's a, a combination of all of 'em makes up the chair and he says, okay, I get it. He says, so chair. That you've got over there. It exists independently like you do. Is that right? And I said, yes. I picked it up and I shook it. I said, this is a chair. What? Come on. And he goes, Hmm. He goes, let me ask you a question. If there wasn't a tree to provide wood for the chair, would the chair be there? [00:27:00] I said No, no, it needed the, so, oh, okay. He said, okay, so I get it. So the chair is the, what you're showing me here, the sum of the parts and the tree. I knew I was in trouble then.

And he said, then let me ask you another question. there wasn't a wood cutter to cut it down, and if the wood cutter didn't have a mother, and if the wood cutter didn't have a saw and those minerals didn't come outta here and the sun didn't come up to, to fertilize the ground so the tree could grow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all of a sudden. His point was everything is interdependent. We are all interrelated. Nothing exists on its own.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: I don't. And if we can view the world through those eyes, wow, it would be a better place.

Zhou Fang: I love that story. I do. I think it illustrates our interdependent so well and our [00:28:00] interconnectedness so well.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes, yes.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah. A chair is a lot. I.

Gil Gillenwater: It shares a lot. It sure is. Well, you know, we are still carrying over these genetics of a very predatory world that we were raised. We were raised in a very dangerous environment for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years. So we're genetically programmed to be suspicious.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: to look for the bad, and that those are strictly survival instincts.

Unfortunately, they kept us alive. They got us to the. Top of the food chain, but unfortunately, they're, they're working against us now.

Zhou Fang: Right.

Gil Gillenwater: uh, this greed. I gotta get mine before you get yours. And this, uh, if we could just exchange the individual ego for the communal ego, things would work a lot better.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah, I cannot agree more. And, um, we need to [00:29:00] say that message over and over again. Community, you know, is bigger than anyone, any of us.

Gil Gillenwater: right. But I'm here to tell you if you present it as a sacrifice. A sacrifice, denotes lack, there's not enough. I'm gonna give you some of mine, then I'm not gonna have what I have. If it's presented that way, nobody's gonna do

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: it's runs contrary to our genetics. you say, wow, let's, I'll tell you what, get involved in service to others and watch your life improve.

Watch the world open up to you. Um, then if people think we, you mean it's my best interest. I called enlightened self-interest. Yes, it's in your best interest to help others. it will take. Traction, it will gain purchase. You know, oh, there's something in it for me. I don't know why charitable work, um, got [00:30:00] interpreted in our culture as a sacrifice.

I don't know if it was Jesus up on the cross. I don't know what it was, but it isn't a sacrifice and we're selling ourselves way short if we treat it that way.

Zhou Fang: I totally agree. It's almost kind of like looking at things as a. Uh, if you look at it as a zero sum game, then it's like a sacrifice. But if you look at, you know, providing service to others and helping each other as a win-win situation, then then it's not a sacrifice. It's actually beneficial for everyone.

So it's really about our perspective, I'm guessing.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes, yes. You know, I say Mother Teresa was the most selfish person on earth because why? She found out what brought her ultimate joy, ultimate satisfaction, ultimate purpose, and she engulfed herself in it by definition. That's selfish.

Zhou Fang: Hmm. [00:31:00] Yeah. Self-interest. Yes.

Gil Gillenwater: Absolutely.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Um.

Gil Gillenwater: She had enlightened self-interest.

Zhou Fang: I love that. I don't think I ever heard of that term, enlightened self-interest. Um, so tell me maybe a little bit more about how do you practice that, the, the enlightened self-interest, because you wrote a book about it, right? Like you wrote a book, hope on the Borderer. How do you, what's your interpretation?

Of hope and how does that serve you and your community?

Gil Gillenwater: Yes. Well, I appreciate you bringing up my book. It's available on, on Amazon, and it goes into a lot of the philosophy I spent, uh, I've been over to Tibet six times and spent a lot of time in Bhutan and on that part of the world and studied with some. Pretty heavy duty llamas and people like that.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: And so I, I've been introduced to some [00:32:00] of these concepts of interrelatedness.

Uh, we're not, nothing exists independently. Um, and so I believe there is hope on the border. I see it when. I see. I take the young, uh, people down, the volunteers and I'll see, it'll be a, a windy morning and I'll watch some sophomore in high school take off her jacket and give it to the little

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: in the street 'cause she doesn't have

Zhou Fang: Wow.

Gil Gillenwater: So I get a little choked up about

Zhou Fang: Sure. Of course.

Gil Gillenwater: I, I really do. It's, uh. It's so powerful. Yeah. And it means so much and it takes so little to make that kind of a difference. So I, I guess in, in, that's the border. But I, you know, these practices can be done everywhere. They can be done in traffic, they can be done in the grocery store.

They can be treating people with dignity, with humanity when we do our food [00:33:00] distributions. Nothing is free. I don't believe in welfare. I think welfare disempowers people, so in our food distributions, you have to collect 20 pieces of discarded plastic off the streets to earn a bag of food,

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: and you should see the difference that makes.

Beforehand people would be, their eyes are downcast, a thousand of them shuffling around to get their bag of food. They're the lowly. Seaver and Gil Gillenwater, the gringo, I get to be the, the benevolent giver and it's this totally unequal exchange of energy. And they smile at you when they take the bag, but you know what?

Underneath they, they despise you. And you know why? Because you were born into a place where you. You were entitled or you were privileged. You have it to give and they weren't. And they recognize that

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: maybe, but they do recognize it. Now when, when I instituted that program [00:34:00] where, okay, you gotta earn this food, this food isn't free. And so they would go clean up the whole darn city. I mean, we picked, we, we pick up 600,000 plastic bags on a food distribution. It's crazy. But they'll go, look at my bag. I have 200 bags. People have their dignity. People want to contribute.

Zhou Fang: Yes.

Gil Gillenwater: They really

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: And so we can design, you can design programs that allow people to con contribute, um, we call it reciprocal giving.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: it's really, really important that you, we understand that concept. We, we, we think it's a, it's misguided compassion when you just go give people things they

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: that, that's wrong. human nature,

Zhou Fang: I think that's really, really cool. You are right. People, you know, by nature we don't like to be handed things like, we like to, like you mentioned, dignity. And I feel [00:35:00] like oftentimes not just in the US in many places, um, you know, people feel like. Like a charity is just donating money. Um, and that makes people feel better.

And that's usually kind of like, I do that once a year and then, and I'm done.

Gil Gillenwater: Right, and I'm off the hook. Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, no.

Gil Gillenwater: Well, don't get me wrong, please don't get me wrong, because I run a charity, I've never taken a dime. I don't believe in that. I, all my work has been volunteer. But you do need money to

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: charity you just plain old do. It's the gasoline that drives the engine. So, I don't, don't get me wrong, I, I'm not saying you shouldn't give money, but you should.

You, you, you, you, it's incumbent upon you to look at where you're giving your money. Are

Zhou Fang: Right,

Gil Gillenwater: it effectively. That's the ticket to that one. Don't just blindly give some of these huge charities. If you look at how much money ends up going to the recipient, [00:36:00] it's sometimes it's single digit. I

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: most of the money and a lot of these big ones go to funding everybody's lifestyle.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I agree. I mean, it happens everywhere. Uh, it happens of course in the Pacific Northwest as well, and it is a big problem.

Gil Gillenwater: Mm-hmm. But there is transparency. There's, uh, there are things, places and organizations you can go on the internet that will, that have actually vetted, uh, charitable organizations and you can look it up and you can get an independent, um, report on how much of your money's going to end up actually doing some good.

Zhou Fang: Hmm. Yeah, transparency. Really important. And definitely encourage people if there are some organizations out there you are interested in and you think you are doing good work, uh, you should definitely look up their information usually. You can find something kind of informative and, uh, can help with decision making as well.

Um, [00:37:00] so I, you have so many stories, girl. I have a hard,

Gil Gillenwater: I do, I do for a fact.

Zhou Fang: It's, uh, it's definitely challenging sometimes my own curiosity, so I want to stay focused. And we talked about, we talked about hope, we talked about spirituality. And you mentioned you have been to, uh, Tibet, Bhutan, and multiple times. And before, you told me, actually before today's interview, a while ago, you told me you gained access to a very kind of like secretive area in Tibet.

And I was like, what? Um. So I want to ask you about your connection to nature and to the world and the creation of your new upcoming documentary, which is going to be presented [00:38:00] soon.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes, yes. Trailblazers is the name of that is gonna be, uh, the premier is gonna be here in Scottsdale, Arizona on February 19th. but all of these things to me are kind of tied together.

Zhou Fang: Sure.

Gil Gillenwater: as I was talking about, um, meditation. Creating space in our minds. I believe there's, there's, uh, three ways to obtain that.

One is through service work as we discuss. The other is through meditation, but the third is nature. Why is it that, um, Buddha, uh, got his enlightenment in the wilderness? Jesus found his enlightenment in the will of Allah. you know, have you known that they all got their In nature, in the outdoors. I, I think that's really, really interesting. And my contention is when we're in the outdoors, we calm our minds down there is room and there is space for, [00:39:00] again, uh, Christ consciousness, Buddha nature, God, whatever you want to call it, to come into your reality. That's been my experience. So, um. And back to your questions.

I just, I, I love adventure. We had some of the first permits from the Communist Chinese to get into an area of southeastern Tibet called Baul Peco, the hidden land of the Blossoming Lotus. And this was the place that the, uh, the enigma, the old school Buddhist believe. When the world comes to an end, they're gonna go to that area, the world's gonna destroy, and they're gonna come out and repopulate as. An enlightened society

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: and it is something else because it is the line between where the subcontinent of India is smashing into Asia, and that's what creates the Himalayan range.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: So we went there, we smuggled a 12 foot paddle raft and tried to raft the world's highest and most dangerous river. I'm the lucky to be here.

We made it one day. I [00:40:00] have never been so. Petrified in my life,

Zhou Fang: am I doing?

Gil Gillenwater: we, my gosh. We were so far from home and we were in so far over our heads, and we ended up walking out of the Himalayas in, in, um, river sandals. Uh, and then we, we met people there. And this part of this, uh, coincidental thing, we met a a, a Buddhist scholar there who knew about this mountain Kund Deron, they all gathering.

Home of the va Safa mind, and we did a circumambulation and it was just so primitive. They'd never seen Westerners before and there were leeches everywhere and

Zhou Fang: Wow.

Gil Gillenwater: this bizarre religion. It was a combination of. Buddhism and the bun, religious and

Zhou Fang: Huh?

Gil Gillenwater: some, some sacrifice and there were poison cults and it was just, we caught the world. You can't go there now because there, the communist Chinese are putting in the world's largest dam where we hiked. But [00:41:00] we, we were on the cus this was before GPS, before cell

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: it was still. Really, really adventurous and uh, and I was introduced to some very, very smart people there. And, and I was able to formulate a lot of my ideas that I use in my charitable work from experiences I had there.

Zhou Fang: It sounds, uh, dangerous.

Gil Gillenwater: It. Yeah. And, and, and looking back, yeah. I was young, you know, I was 40 at the time and, uh, didn't have a real, uh, concept of how dangerous it actually was. But back, there were some times, the problem was there was no rescue. We were,

Zhou Fang: Right. Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: miles from anywhere and, and with no cell phones or anything, it was just,

Zhou Fang: Huh.

Gil Gillenwater: your own.

Zhou Fang: I mean, again, I feel to a degree, I mean, not entirely to a degree. You know, we are so lucky to be having this conversation 'cause you know, we're lucky to be [00:42:00] alive.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes, I often th think, and maybe I'm just weird, but I always think about the path that my genetics had to go from the, from the beginning, you know, tadpoles up, up on land into cavemen, all it had to weave through all the plagues and had to weave through all the wars and all that. All do, do, do get, to

Zhou Fang: Right.

Gil Gillenwater: think those ha that's incalculable that I'm even

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I, yeah, it blows my mind. It's just.

Gil Gillenwater: It's, it blows my mind that anybody would waste this experience. Why would you waste this experience? You need to study what makes you happy, what makes the world a better place, and go for it. Because the odds you, you've just won the largest lottery ever imagined.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I agree. I fully agree. We, we are truly the lucky ones and I. I hope, [00:43:00] you know, I intend to use this luck or this fortune, you know, to do something that's, that means something like the purpose and the meaning behind it.

Gil Gillenwater: Well, I think you've got a pretty powerful purpose here because this, I'm one guy, I could be talking to one or two other people. You, you are projecting and, and compounding, uh, the message of, of service to others on a, on a big scale. I think that's a, an incredible contribution.

Zhou Fang: Thank you, and I think you are too humble. I mean, you have your book out there and you have your documentary out there, like you are talking to people. Okay. Um, so you are going to show your documentary, right? Like in February.

Gil Gillenwater: yes. Let me give a little background on

Zhou Fang: Sure.

Gil Gillenwater: Uh, my brother and I have got a brother, Troy, and in 1978, we hiked the Pacific Crest Trail through the state of Washington and we came back to Arizona and said, wouldn't that be fun if we did it in Arizona? And so we started putting it together and we soon [00:44:00] realized. couldn't because you can't carry enough water at seven pounds a gallon. You just can't do it. So we got two mules. We planned this for two years and we hiked from Mexico all the way up through Arizona to Kanab, Utah, 810 miles. It took us two and a half months and we just had a great time. We kind of high fived at the end and that was it. Well comes out. They took our route and they turned it into the Arizona Trail, the

Zhou Fang: Wow.

Gil Gillenwater: Scenic Arizona Trail, which it is today, and thousands of people every year walk the origi, the route that my brother and I originally established in 1982.

Zhou Fang: God. Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: so the um, Arizona Trail Association in honor of that, their 40 year anniversary. Um. Uh, we this documentary and it's a [00:45:00] 40, 40 minutes long and we've got, uh, original footage 'cause we were on TV a little bit. We took a lot of photographs. And then we have the, the ex uh, secretary of the interior, Bruce Babbitt,

Zhou Fang: Oh.

Gil Gillenwater: from Arizona. He gives a wonderful interview and Kevin Fedarko, who's on the New York Times bestseller list for writing books about the Grand Canyon and rafting, the Colorado River.

He's on. uh, the documentary. So it's, it's a fast moving, fast pace. Really fun. Back in the back in the days before GPS, before cell phones, I mean, we had two pistols and a saw off shotgun and we had to use 'em, that this was wild, wild West back then.

Zhou Fang: Oh wow. I wanna see the documentary for sure.

Gil Gillenwater: Well, we'll make, I'll make sure that happens.

Zhou Fang: No, I mean, we talked about this. I really hope you can do a showing in Portland.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes. Yes. Well, I'm, we're, we're cautiously optimistic. We're gonna get into to Telluride. [00:46:00] I know we're in the film festival, Flagstaff. We're gonna, we've got a, a screening down in Tucson, Arizona. I had Spanish subtitles put on so

Zhou Fang: Of Cool.

Gil Gillenwater: give the presentation. Yeah. Down in, in good Old Mexico. So, yeah, I, I'd love to work with you.

Maybe you could, um. Or we could talk about who, who would be the right person there in Portland to talk

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: we'll, we'll follow up on that.

Zhou Fang: We can definitely brainstorm on that. I'm very excited because, well, I shouldn't say I'm very excited. My boyfriend is very excited because he's always wanted to do Thei, Pacific Crescent Trail,

Gil Gillenwater: Yes.

Zhou Fang: and I think I mentioned to you, to him and he's like, oh, he is the Arizona Trail guy and I think he's heard of you.

Um.

Gil Gillenwater: Uh,

Zhou Fang: Of course he's the outdoor, more like, uh, a backpacking kind of person. And I was like, what? Like, you know, that. Um, so I'm, I'm very excited for [00:47:00] him and I'm excited too.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes. Well, it's

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Gil Gillenwater: It, uh, and one of the, the reasons we're doing it is because there was an initiative here in Arizona to take a lot of our public land, uh, into private ownership. 87% of the Arizona trail is on public land, and we need to keep it that

Zhou Fang: Yes.

Gil Gillenwater: There's not enough land as it is, and if we, the more we keep privatizing and developing and privatizing and developing, there's not gonna be much left for, for our future generations.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I agree. And it's more important than ever I think, 'cause Mother Nature belongs to all of us

Gil Gillenwater: Yes,

Zhou Fang: and. Yeah. And we, we, we need to make it accessible. We need to make it or keep it available to the next generations.

Gil Gillenwater: yes.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: Yep. And that's, that's a big focus. It, it is actually a fundraiser for their endowment. And to really push that, uh, [00:48:00] that aspect of land ownership in Arizona, that we need to maintain what's public.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. I guess perhaps one word that comes to mind is, um. We are stewards of the land. Like we don't rule over it, we steward it and um, we need to do a better job.

Gil Gillenwater: I agree a hundred percent and hopefully this film will get other people to agree as well, because Arizona's a beautiful state. I mean,

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: pine trees, we got scorching deserts, the Colorado River, huge canyons. It's really a beautiful, beautiful state. And one of the girls in the documentary rode a bicycle from Utah all the way to Mexico on the Arizona

Zhou Fang: What?

Gil Gillenwater: uh, hers is quite a story.

Zhou Fang: Wow. Um, well, I look forward to visiting. Um, it's on my list for sure. And, um. So with all the stories we share today, and [00:49:00] thank you, Gil. How and where do people find you and follow your journey and follow your work?

Gil Gillenwater: Sure it's pretty easy. The name of the organization is Rancho Feliz, R-A-N-C-H-O-F-E-L-I-Z. It means Happy

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: in Spanish. So we're, uh, rancho feliz.com. And it's all there. We've got a pretty extensive, uh, website if you want to come down and volunteer with us. We can tell you when, when our open dates are.

If you have a group that wants to come down, we can schedule it. I tell you, it's more fun, Jill. 'cause you, you, you, you get that great sense of purpose, but then you come back and we have the traditional Mexican dinners and the Mariachis playing the,

Zhou Fang: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: Puerto Mexico people, I don't think I've ever had a group that's gone down that hasn't come back.

They

Zhou Fang: Huh?

Gil Gillenwater: love it down there. So

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: had just had a big, big group, uh, this last weekend, and I got nothing but glowing reports. So [00:50:00] come down and join us. I, I promise you a good time. I promise you, you're gonna make the world a better place. And you know what, like even me, uh, many times as I've been down, if I stay up here in Scottsdale too long and my dry cleaning's a day late, I have a fit.

I mean. such a good, you put your life in perspective real quick. Go down there all of a sudden, uh, to have the problem of dry cleaning is a blessing, you know,

Zhou Fang: I know and you're like, yeah, why do I worry about my drying?

I love it. Um, we will make it down there.

Gil Gillenwater: Good. We, we, we sure welcome you with open

Zhou Fang: Thank you.

Gil Gillenwater: the Mexican people. The Mexican people, Joe, are, they're just wonderful.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: they've gotten a bad rap. Um, but I'm telling you, I've been down there 40 years and that's another important thing is people say, oh, Gil Mexico's so dangerous. We've had 28,000 volunteers and never a single incident of violence.

Zhou Fang: Hmm.

Gil Gillenwater: I couldn't do that in Phoenix. I [00:51:00] promise you.

Zhou Fang: I believe you. I trust me. Yeah, I believe you. I have had a wonderful experience when we visited Mexico, um, sometime ago. Um, yeah, it felt like home. I think I mentioned to you, I, it felt like home and I felt very at ease. Um, yeah. And I felt incredibly safe as well.

Gil Gillenwater: Yes.

Zhou Fang: Yeah.

Gil Gillenwater: I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad to hear you say that because there are dangerous places in Mexico. No question about it. And I could spend a whole another hour talking about America's contribution to that, as in, if the gringo weren't sniffing it up their nose. There would be no market.

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Gil Gillenwater: let's take our responsibility.

It's not just the Mexican smuggling drugs. How about the users? It's, that's just common capitalism. If there's no market, you're not gonna have a supply. We're we got half, we have half more than half of that blame on our backs.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah, totally. [00:52:00] Again, I think if we think about the interconnectedness and you know, interrelationships, we have, we know, you know, you can't clap with one hand.

Gil Gillenwater: Yeah,

Zhou Fang: So it takes two hands to clap. Um, okay. Well, I look forward to the day when we can have a toast together, Gil.

Gil Gillenwater: that would be a blast. I, we built a tower down there for our happy hours, and we'll get up. We'll be looking over the whole city and we will have a toast.

Zhou Fang: I, yes, I'm there. I am there. I look forward to it. Thank you so much, Gil, for your time today.

Gil Gillenwater: The pleasure has been mine. Thank you.