"Healing Should Not Be A Luxury." with Mindy Mortlock, on Somatic Dialogue and Release, Magic, and Healing for Everyone.

zhou-fang: All right. hello everyone. Welcome to the Intersection podcast, a program about intersectionality and the intersectional journeys. And, uh, I'm thrilled to have a new lander, uh, um, to join us today. Uh, her name is Mindy Mortlock. Mindy and I met. I think maybe seven or eight months ago at a social event. And we started talking and I was very fascinated by, her journey from the Bay Area to Portland. Um, and Mindy is a coach, a mentor, and a somatic, consultant or coach. Uh, let her, uh, tell us more. Please tell us who you are, Mindy, and welcome.

Mindy: Oh, thank you Zhou. Um, well I am Mindy [00:01:00] Mortlock and, uh, I came to Portland, uh, seven months, seven and a half months ago from the Bay Area. And I have a private practice that was given the moniker of Somatic Dialogue and Release 20 years ago when I opened my door by a client. And so I've stuck with it and I do, you know, I'm a lot of things, but professionally this is, this is what I do and my work specializes in.

The removal of foreign energies. So if you think of sort of like a combination of a psychic detective and then like a surgeon, that's the bulk of what my practice addresses. Um, I combine the clairvoyant piece to be able to get down to the bottom of a symptom and. I [00:02:00] use a variety of body work techniques that are aimed at allowing the body to somatically release and also the nervous system to be able to recalibrate a lot around that release.

So, I mean, a couple examples I like to story tell more than 'cause it all seems so abstract, especially when something's more esoteric. Like, what? What would I do?

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: And I mean, so there's a couple stories. Um. I'm seeing somebody that was kidnapped by her father when she was five and she was ill at the time, and being able to work with that takes a lot of layers.

So what it is to have your body remember being absconded with in a moving car when you're ill and the damage it does to left right brain transfer, um, to be in that frightened state. So. What I do is be able to remove the energies that [00:03:00] are stuck on a person so that then they can start to have their executive functioning come back.

And also there's been like an up, a really deep upheaval with something like that. And so with a deep upheaval like that, being able to use things like craniosacral or other body work methods aimed at helping the nervous system to be able to really release what's left. And then to find its own again.

Especially if it's been like 60 years, which for her it had been, um, that, that's an example. Uh, and then all the belief systems around it. Like, at any minute, something's gonna change, right? This person does not have a stable life. And now, you know, two years into working with, with me, she's a lot more stable, able to hold work, things that she hasn't been able to do.

Um. And then another example that I see a lot of in my practice, I see somebody that's been in a relationship with a narcissist [00:04:00] and a narcissist will basically own you on levels that nobody wants to think about. Sure. They're owning you by doing all the things we've come to watch on YouTube. We've all are grateful for YouTube and what it's done to educate us about narcissism.

zhou-fang: Mm.

Mindy: There's all that, right? There's all that, and I can help with that. But also a narcissist gets in you energetically and can interfere with like your higher guidance system, right? People will be in trance for how long? Sometimes 20 years in a trance with a narcissist, and it's, part of it is that they've gotten into your higher guidance and hijack that.

So being able to excavate. That predator out of somebody's higher guidance system and out of their energy body and be able to come back to who they are, um, isn't really that short of a journey, but it, at the end of it, people who have, who have done the work can go on and have a healthy relationship without having to do [00:05:00] sort of a, it's sort of like, if you think about it.

It's like you have to do a manual override after a situation like that where you're like, I know this person isn't that, but you're constantly in this like talk self-talk versus if you do the work to release the energy, then you can just be you and um. Of course the belief system work that goes with that about like, I'm stupid for getting involved like this, when actually it's like, what is it?

It's probably your parents or being a woman where we think we're supposed to be subservient in our values and our needs and our services. Right? And so a lot of it's like the cultural shit pile or the famili ship pile, and any smart person will just pile it upon themselves and being able to pile that off.

So those are a couple examples of what I do, but basically taking you back after something that got ahold of you. Even a hospital stay.

zhou-fang: Mm. Thank you for sharing the examples. I mean, [00:06:00] storytelling is basically how we, you know, share our knowledge and wisdom, and I think you were able to really illustrate some really challenging situations and how you help people release their energy that does not serve them. Um, so, uh, really appreciate that.

'cause it, it gives me like a better idea of what you do. Um, and I want to maybe step back a little and, 'cause you've been this, been doing this work for. Uh, a couple decades now, and I'm curious to learn, you know, what got into got, got you into the somatic, uh, release and somatic movements work to help other people.

What inspired you to do.

Mindy: Mm-hmm. Um. I had a life-threatening illness when I was 28, and it's like one of [00:07:00] those cauldron of spiritual illnesses that I think we hear so much of, especially in podcasts right now of some, right? It's a crazy illness that no medical doctor could ever solve, but the only answer was to become yourself.

And, uh, so I had right, and uh, I had a good guide for one of those situations. I had life threatening. I had life threatening food allergies and I was like literally two weeks away from dying and I couldn't process water. And at the time I was, uh, working inside of a native community and they said, oh, here's our guy.

Be open. And uh, I went to go see him and he had all these vials. I loved it. He had all these vials of all of the different organs. And he ran all the vials over my body and he's like, oh, you're allergic to yourself. And I was, yeah, right. Like in, [00:08:00] I was 20, I was 28 and like, sort of like the classic San Francisco, um, combination of being an activist and then being like a serious partier.

And so I had enough wake to like hear that. Be willing to fall backwards into it and just to take the journey. And, um, he, he was trained with a faith healer from Brazil, so he was combining chiropractic and nutrition and faith healing. And I just fell in love with what I was doing and what he was doing very much.

And, um, I got better. Eight months later I was, uh, stable and I just asked him to point my way into doing the work that he does and. Um, and, and he did. So he, he mentored me for a little while and then I went to, uh, I went to a variety of body work schools and then realized that I would need to be able to be a bit more of a, a listener [00:09:00] with pro tips.

So I went and got my. Multiple life coaching and business coaching and relationship. Every single possible coaching certification that you can get, I got those to kind of create a foundation of, of what I'm doing. And like the coaching holds it. The coaching holds it, the body work allows for some certain things medically and, and like the faith healing piece is, is the middle of it for me.

And like what, what got me into it was, um. Just what appeared to be at the, at that time magic. Like there, I'll always remember how the second time I went to go see him, he said, oh, your, your adrenals are drained. And then he stuck his hand under the table. And then I woke up the next day and I just had twice as much energy as I did.

And I'm like, what, what? Like, what am I not paying attention to in the world about what's possible? I'm being really sold something that isn't true, and it isn't as if I wasn't. [00:10:00] It was, I wasn't by any means mainstream, but still I was like, wow, I'm missing some clues here. You know? So just magic, you know?

Magic was, and, and really it isn't magic, it's just that,

zhou-fang: Mm,

Mindy: you know what I mean?

zhou-fang: Yep.

Mindy: Yeah.

zhou-fang: The wisdom that we weren't able to tap into that's, um, very clear um, apparent for. Uh, native communities, um, somehow we are shielded from it.

Mindy: Exactly

zhou-fang: I'm, I'm just he said, you are allergic to yourself. I, I just find that line so powerful. Um, and a lot of us are, I mean, a lot of the illness, you know, that either physically, spiritually, emotionally, All those, you [00:11:00] know, like that kind of illness and feeling unwell, but can really describe how are we unwell that that feels like some kind of allergy.

Mindy: And it comes back. I, I actually don't know how old you are. I just, I just turned,

zhou-fang: Yeah.

Mindy: you don't have to tell me. You don't have to tell me, but like, I just turned 50 myself and like all of this, so I've been diving into the literature about like what actually is midlife crisis. And I feel like I'm going through exactly the same thing when I went was when I was 28, where like, what, what information hasn't been available to me and discovering.

At this point, an next spiral of allergies internally myself, where it's like, oh, the, these are some allergies that the following blockages in my life are determined to be there until I wake up to the new set of things that my soul is basically going on strike till I notice. And it's a totally, it's midlife.

I mean, that's what midlife really [00:12:00] is, is like our, our soul will go on strike until we happen to notice which allergies are going on. 'cause it's like, this is your last shot, buddy.

zhou-fang: Maybe not quite a shop, but you know, getting close like, 'cause you know,

Mindy: Yeah,

zhou-fang: um.

Mindy: yeah. Yeah.

zhou-fang: Well, I find that so fascinating. Is it, it sort of does feel like life is a cycle, right? Like what, you went through a version of it at 28 and perhaps you are going through something else that kind of feels similar at 50 years old and I, I'm 37.

I'm turning 38 soon and I had a crisis last year as well. And um, yeah, I wonder if. the person who told you you're allergic to self will say something similar to me that I, I felt like I did that for myself. And, um, so yeah, it really got me thinking. You know, people always say we are our own [00:13:00] biggest enemy.

Like, you know, the cell, the, the, the internalized all kinds of emotions and negativities that we put in ourselves. So yeah, that's really profound.

Mindy: Right. Yeah. And it sounds like you're also saying that, um, you put it in yourself, but, but not without your own regard where it, you know, you took yourself to a place that you have to pay attention to it. There's like this two parts of us that's like, Hey, I'm gonna do this to you, so you have to pay attention.

And then there's the other part that's like it totally at a loss.

zhou-fang: Yes, because the how and the why, because what we see, like you said, is symptoms. How do we get to the bottom of it? Um, so I feel this is a place where maybe we can explore more and you can tell more is,

Mindy: Hmm.

zhou-fang: you know, in your practice. with the help of perhaps, [00:14:00] uh, native medicine or indigenous medicine or ancient wisdom, how do you help your clients get to the bottom of the symptoms?

Mindy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, well, I have basically a map that of, of how I do it and. So it start, it starts like this. Um,

I, let me, let me couch it in like a storytelling thing. Let's go back to that. Go back to the kidnapping client, right. So, um,

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: like her executive function, her executive functioning was not a match. For her talent level. She's an extremely talented acupuncturist and so smart, but her executive functioning wasn't a match.

And so I use my intuition to zero in on where there seems to be some, like something isn't, [00:15:00] something isn't lining up here, and like what is that symptom that isn't lining up? And in her case it was executive functioning. So then I use my hands, I'm. Well, my gifts are like all of the Claire, everythings the Claire audience, the clear, sentient, the, there's the word for when you pick up information by touch, which is weird that I should know it by heart, but whatever that word is, that's my strongest one.

And so by touch I can pick it up and be like, oh, for her, for example, I was like, well, you were five. I can feel that. And she's like, oh, that's when my dad kidnapped me. And so the beginning is to. Use my hand and figure out where did it all start, you know? Um, I had another client, uh, who had an emergency appendectomy when she was three with a nurse who just was not a kind person.

And she, and like once that we got down to it was a [00:16:00] nurse that she didn't trust. Then the rest of what had been, she'd been living with for 58 years after that appendectomy was able to resolve and did so like the, I'm getting ahead of myself, but like, so the first part is to use my hand and be like, it started here, whatever that that is.

And then, um. Allowing the body to release. And depending on the person a lot, actually, sometimes that's all that it needs is like, oh, I just needed this help. Oh, thank God. Like who? It just releases it out of the body, you know? And other people I need to employ like osteopathy in various ways where we can help the bones to be able to come back into place.

And when the bones can come back into place, then the energies can actually become untrapped like. According to most craniosacral traditions, the trauma is trapped in the sutures. So being able to allow those sutures to, um, come back together and release, uh, and so releasing and [00:17:00] depending on the level of the trauma, it can be one session in people are good to go and they never need to see me again.

Or it can be two years in, you know. Um, and so releasing the energetic piece of it is, is part two. And then part three is a really thorough belief system thing. You know, usually it starts with all the self blame and, and then moves into the stuff that may have been from somebody else. So say for it can get complex.

Say for example, we'll take my kidnapping example. So she. Was carrying all kinds of belief systems that were from her dad that she had inherited because she was so vulnerable that she just like absorbed them like a sponge when she was freaking out. And there're all kinds of things that belong to him that didn't belong to her.

And so when then we can let go of [00:18:00] those and like, uh, that can be a bumpy period in healing where like you can really see your life in a pretty bald way. About like, oh, my life is a, has been a representation, at least in some departments of somebody else's ideas.

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: And then mo moving through those bumps, um, of, of getting aligned in your life, uh, around what you see.

And then, um,

a big piece of what I do. That I think differentiates me and also gets me a lot of therapists who refer to me. I don't know if you know what an interject is.

zhou-fang: No. Can you tell me more?

Mindy: Sure. So, um, an interject, uh,

I'm trying to think of like, examples coming to mind are so [00:19:00] gnarly. I don't wanna like be too gnarly, but like in, uh, here I know I have a, I have a client. Who, uh, I have a client whose father used to talk her into getting to talk her into being an assistant for him at his vet lab when she was like four or something, like basically child labor.

And, uh, and so she, and interject is when you take on the belief systems and the way of looking at yourself from the eye of your abuser. And basically it's like you take it in so that way you begin to abuse yourself with the same thoughts that your abuser is having about you. But when you take it in, it means you have control.

Like, oh, like I'm doing this to myself now so I don't have to endure the pain of this person doing this to me. So she just was like, oh, I'm just somebody. I'm just everybody else's helper. It's fine. I'm somebody [00:20:00] else's helper, which is how she endured. That. And so an interject is bumpy to get out because it can be hard to even grasp that something like this would exist, that we'd be so smart to take on this idea of like, well, this person's abusing me, but instead I'll just adopt all of their framework and apply it to myself.

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: And so we send that energy, we send the interject back to the sender, whoever that that was. Your dad or your uncle or whoever that it was, we send it back. And then underneath that is like often a pretty unformed small identity. You know, for her it started at four. It's like, well then underneath that is what, maybe not much.

And so being able to then start over with, and that, I mean, that part is exciting. What's, what's new? You know, that what, what's, what's new for you here that you could put here? As long as there's an empty space. [00:21:00] Um,

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: that's about when I start to like lose about 60% of my clients is because it's hard work.

zhou-fang: Yeah.

Mindy: It's really hard work.

zhou-fang: People probably run away from it.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, I've been, I've been like, I mean maybe I should, I don't know, but like I've been doing a lot of work on like my like contract that I have people. So that way I'm like, it says in the contract you can't leave, stay long enough so that way you can be you, you know?

But it can be so painful to be like, wow, this was going on for 40 years. But I'm like, but it could not go on for 40 more years.

zhou-fang: Right. I mean, I can only imagine, know, for some clients all it takes is one or two sessions. I, I can see that very fortunate,

Mindy: Yeah.

zhou-fang: and they're smart to do it right? Like, to be able to release and to heal, uh, with, uh, a fairly kind of like, uh, limited efforts.

Mindy: yeah.

zhou-fang: I, I'm, [00:22:00] I'm thinking about your clients who may be coming to you for like years and they're still working on

Mindy: Yep.

zhou-fang: and I can't imagine the, you know, the gravity of their life experience.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah, it's true. I mean, 'cause like I have many clients that come in where like, this is such a sad and typical story for women that they were, they were at a party when they were like seven or eight or four or five, and then somebody took 'em into a closet and like raped them or molested them. That's like a one to two session thing, right?

Like it happened once. And like, okay, let's get this off of you. But then there's, you know, o other situations like, you know, more serious things that I've already talked about and like it's, then it becomes a, a flow where we do one episode. So let's say there's the going into the car and being kidnapped episode.

And like that will have [00:23:00] multiple layers of flow where first we're dealing with like one part of it and that releases, and then she adjusts her life to be aligned around that. Then we go back and do another part of it, and then we, you know, like let's say when she was returned to her mom, and her mom acted like nothing ever happened, then we have to go in and do that layer,

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: And then like the interject layer of like, well, I'll just to go ahead and adopt all of his thoughts into me. Because it'd be easier than at five, enduring the emotional impact of what just happened. I'll just agree to be subservient to all these thought forms and like that's a whole nother, like, so you, it's just the flow can go on for a bit.

Um, yeah. Yeah. And, and grief. And grief.

zhou-fang: Definitely, I mean, that almost feels like requires, some, like perhaps your referral to other [00:24:00] practitioners too. You know, at some, at a certain point someone will need to work on their grief after, you know, releasing that energy.

Mindy: I did meet that person. I think she was the second person I met when I moved to Portland with somebody that I refer to for that portion of things. So,

zhou-fang: Yeah. Uh, that's

Mindy: Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang: Um, you talked about, you know, in your, uh, decades of practice is that you come across some pretty challenging. Cases, and I don't wanna say ca, I shouldn't say cases

Mindy: Yeah.

zhou-fang: that kind of like dehumanize people. So when you work with clients and people who are like, please help me, um, some of the cases are pretty severe and challenging and, um, how, like in those situations, how are you, [00:25:00] um, taking care of your own mind? Um, for example, you know, like treating, treating people or helping people with some severe childhood trauma, how do you, do you dissociate? I, I don't know if that's necessarily healthy, but I'm

Mindy: Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang: do you set boundaries and protect your heart?

Mindy: Mm-hmm. Um, that also has been a layered journey, um, and.

A couple,

there's a couple pieces that were enormous for me, and I'm afraid one of them is gonna sound so woo, but as long as I'm an energy practitioner, I guess I should just go, you know. Oh, oh, well,

zhou-fang: it.

Mindy Right. Oh, oh, well this is, this is woo. But um, uh, one was accepting my archetype. [00:26:00] Like

zhou-fang: Um.

Mindy: my archetype is a protector archetype.

And like I fought against that for a long time in, in internally, and, and like what it did was ended up having me take home entities from my clients. And like once I was able to say, oh, like this is, this is my archetype, like this is my sacred calling, it totally just strengthened my board by so much, so much.

Um, that was a big piece. And the other piece is really nuts and bolts. Um, as a survivor of violence myself, I went and did two packages with a neuro emotional technique expert, um, NET, who we basically excavated any shred of thought. That I need to be responsible for anybody else. Like nothing in my skeleton thinks that anymore [00:27:00] and like we moved it out of me.

And,

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: um, that was, yeah. For somebody who's surviving violence, who is helping people in violence, I think that's kind of the only way to go is to get it all the way out of your skeleton.

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: You know, I really, I just trust somebody that like. They, they have the intelligence to find me and they have the intelligence, therefore, to take care of themselves and the journey and that I don't have to take any of this on and I don't, I don't.

zhou-fang: Hmm. Mm-hmm. That's incredible. And it's also very hard to do. I, I'm my guess because I know you are a very empathetic and compassionate person, and having that ability to, you know, knowledge, um, you know, the, the challenges you are helping people with, and also kind of draw a line, you know, this is [00:28:00] not my

Mindy: Yeah.

zhou-fang: Uh, like you already have your story and you are not anyone's story. And I feel that's, that's very interesting because you say your archetype is protector, but I'm really glad you didn't say savior. That's a very big difference. You know, I feel when people say, oh, like that's my calling. I want to help people, and blah, blah, blah, like. But their behavior is like, I'm here to save you, but that's not what you are doing. So I was just, I'm very really to learn. You know, your archetype is protector and you are there to hold people. You are, you are container and you are there to guide them.

Mindy: Yeah, yeah, I am. I am. Boy. Talk to me. Even like, let's say five years into my practice and like, I don't think I would've even occurred to me. [00:29:00] Savior, it wouldn't have occurred to me, but trust me, I was there.

zhou-fang: Mm.

Mindy: You know, like if I would've gone to some psychic, she would've been like, oh Lord, buckle up. We gotta take this out, and that out.

And like, you know, it's, yeah. I can't, I, I love what I do. I can't, I can't. I mean, the other thing is my conviction. Like, imagine if I took things home, no way. You know, I gotta do what I gotta do.

zhou-fang: Right. gosh. I, yeah. I think more people need to hear this is that clarity, which is very much lost, um, in a lot of places these days that kind of like mental clarity is so important right now, and we're just losing that clarity everywhere. It's uh, it's scary.

Mindy: Yeah, it's, uh, we, we could go on with that. Yeah. Do you know, I'm a little out of turn in saying this, but there's one last piece to the map of how I help people. Could I tack it [00:30:00] on?

zhou-fang: Please, please

Mindy: Okay. So after we do all the energetic components, which I described, then we do parts work. And what I want to have heard out there to all of the intelligent people listening to you, I'm sure based on your audience.

Based on your audience, uh, but is that. Our fractured selves, which that, that's getting a lot of press right now, which I'm really happy. That's getting a lot of press. Like our fractured selves can carry entities, um, which may be just leftover thought forms that have had time to crystallize or like our predators.

Demons, or it could have our, our, our fractured selves could be something like, if I have this belief system, then my capacity to function as a professional will go for shit. So I'll just hide it down here. But. With those things where that shows up probably is in our romantic life.

zhou-fang: Um. Mm-hmm.

Mindy: And then it shows up also in like small things like maybe like a [00:31:00] housing disaster.

Where Why is that? Because we're expecting the world to fall apart on us, right? And so like then I clean all of the fractured selves so that they're not also unconsciously sabotaging us, and then help those to integrate back into you. Um, and also I would say the other piece that's really critical is that once they've divested themselves of, or even the rage that they don't feel would be appropriate in the world, um, especially as a woman or a person of color, I'll just hide this rage in various fractured selves.

And once they can digest, divest themselves of the emotions, um, there's a wisdom that can occur that can be not subtle, you know? Like, oh, that was, sure. Taking up a lot of space and in the space of holding all this rage so I don't hurt somebody or myself. There's a wisdom. So like that's the, the, the bit, the last bit of how I help people.

zhou-fang: Yeah. That's awesome. Thank [00:32:00] you for completing,

Mindy: Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang: overall kind of

Mindy: Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang: uh, with clients and with people. And I do think this is a good place for us maybe move on to the next curiosity of mine is that, um, in our recent communication, you point out, you know, you would love to, I mean, I, my guess is it is associated to your, uh, experience and relationship with the native community and the land. you said you would love to be, able to hold your dream of being able to make a living while living with relative respect to the land. Um, with perhaps, know. Maybe to coexist with heartbreak as well as capitalism that basically put us where we are today.

Mindy: Yeah.

zhou-fang: Um, and the part of, part of this that's really kind of [00:33:00] like, um, got me is the dream part. Um, I really want to learn more about your, your vision or your version of, of that dream you have for yourself.

Mindy: Mm, mm-hmm. As long as I've paved the, as long as I lay down the tarmac for, woo, we'll go for that. Um, um,

zhou-fang: Yes.

Mindy: well, uh, I guess I could, is it, is it all right if I lay out a couple stories from my past to like, lay it out here?

zhou-fang: As long as you feel comfortable and safe, yes.

Mindy: Okay. Um, so thank you. Uh, well, the, the first story, my career started, um, my career started doing AmeriCorps Vista, which is Peace Corps [00:34:00] on a remote reservation in. North Dakota doing resiliency work with, um, middle school girls. And that reservation was doing sustenance living primarily because that's what was available and, um, being the way that their community worked was come hunting time.

In the fall that you would break up into groups of eight, and then there would be the falling of either an elk or a deer, and then, which was the men's duty. And then the, the women, um, at least would clean the ducks and the foul, if not also shoot them. And so I was in the duck cleaning group and the groups of eight, which something like that.

I think for me it was like three families that I was part of. And then you divided up the, um, the meat. And that was your meat for the winter. And it, it left such a deep, [00:35:00] deep impression on me about how simple it was. You know, like going to the grocery store is much more complex than that was, you know, I, I'll never know who went and shot that, the deer that I got that portion of, but somebody in that group went and shot the deer and then, and so, um, you know, and then having in my freezer full of.

You know, something that was procured from the land and, you know, in a sacred way. And I'm sure there's people who are vie vegan and vegetarian listening to this. And this is my own experience and my own experience of what for me did appear and feel very profound. And

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: so that stayed with me and I was able to have that again when I was living in a commune in Ojai.

Uh, it was like 15 years ago I was there and we didn't shoot anything, but we, we were part of a community in, uh. South Dakota that did that with the buffalo. So 16 of us bought an entire buffalo [00:36:00] and, and we also lived, uh, with an acre garden between 20 of us at the Ojai community. And, um, living in harmony with one's values makes you so much happier.

And I've been aware of like. A, a slice of misery that's been there for me ever since not being part of that. And so my, in terms of like coexisting between heartbreak and capitalism, there's so many things that we don't have choices over in order to participate in like making a living. And I mean, my dream would be to at least around food and petrol use, like the community in Ojai.

We had a deal where the re there was a retired person who was part of our community and she shopped for us. So unless it was like a specialty deal, other than that, all of our shopping was brought to us, [00:37:00] you know?

zhou-fang: see.

Mindy: And so like I, I left twice a week and other than that, I really did live on the land with a community of people.

And, um, but I was broke and like. That's where the capitalism piece is. Like it'd be okay to live without money if it were that time in our human history, right? So

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: that's like where my dream, my dreaming is. That is what would it be like to have the elements of sustenance living where I don't have to have meat packaged in any plastic.

You know, maybe I use the same Ziploc to catch that deer every year for 10 years. Right. And stick it in the freezer.

zhou-fang: Mm-hmm.

Mindy: being able to, um, coexist in community is extremely difficult. 'cause we just like dredge up all of our shit. You know? That's what, that was my experience living with 20 people. We just dredged up each [00:38:00] other's shit, but like how to work with that maybe differently than how we did at that commune in Ojai so that there was appropriate shields and mediations and things like that.

But like bringing, bringing those things together where I wanna make a difference in today's modern world.

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: And I also would way rather live off of a garden. And have a couple people shoot the animals and then I'll clean them and put them in my freezer and be so grateful to the animal, you know, and not have to like go into a grocery store with like lights in a car.

zhou-fang: Yeah. No, I hear you. I really, I resonate with you a lot on this, you know? Dreaming and living on this land with respect. I mean, it's so hard and I feel what you described is really like a [00:39:00] different way of, um. Like a new eco e economy system. Not new, but it's an alternative economy system like co-ops or like commune, uh, or like mutual, uh, mutual funded, uh, community living.

Um, how, however we wanna word that. And, um, I think it's something that's very, um, kind of like has, Attracted a lot of interest in the Pacific Northwest, and I feel the, the Bay Area as well is people are really trying to explore ways to reduce harm, even though we can't really live outside of the capitalistic society just yet.

Mindy: Yeah.

zhou-fang: Um, I really resonate with this dream you have, and I feel. I think it is possible, although, because we're all [00:40:00] human beings, right? Like when you say it's like we're just judged up, know, everyone's stuff and shit. And think has a lot to do with community agreements and boundaries.

Mindy: Yes,

zhou-fang: And oftentimes

Mindy: yes.

zhou-fang: you come into these kind of projects with very good intention, um, but we forget, you know, we're just human beings.

Mindy: Y Yeah. Yeah. I, I, you're so right, and thank you for saying that, Joe. You're so right. It's really about agreements and, um, I guess protocols is the word.

zhou-fang: Oh, yeah, yeah,

Mindy: Protocols, you know, and like be being adults with the protocols can go a long way.

zhou-fang: I agree.

Mindy: Right,

zhou-fang: I

Mindy: right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's why I'm sure, I mean, if I were listening, I'd be, I, I might be like, why didn't you stay on the commune?

That's why was [00:41:00] the protocols were not such to hold.

zhou-fang: That happens a lot

Mindy: It happens all the time and like, you know. There's this crazy, speaking of like prophetic moments, I've had some things said to me in my lifetime, but the owner of that commune, when the day the week I decided to leave the owner's son, who I believe was 28, we were in the kitchen together, one of those amazing community kitchens.

And he turned to me and he, and he said, you know, we're not perfect here and, and you can leave, but you're gonna be miserable if you go and like, yes. He was totally right. Like he was totally right. Like the part of me that knows what it's like to live with the land and what it was to be like, this person shot this buffalo and like now we're sharing it and we're not going to the, I'm directly like, you know what I mean?

And, and, and we also have a salmon fisherman that would serve

zhou-fang: Yeah.

Mindy: and, and like.

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: [00:42:00] What it was like also to be like, I feel kind of sad, I'm gonna go over to the community kitchen at one in the morning. 'cause I feel a little sad. Sure enough, somebody's gonna be there who also feels right and like, so

zhou-fang: Yeah.

Mindy: there, he, he, you know, I don't regret leaving, but at the same time there's been things I haven't been able to replace.

And sure, it seems to be like a, a, a holy grail that we all discuss, but most people haven't seemed to manage to set it up.

zhou-fang: No, um, because we are. In a setting like that, like we are, well, we're dealing with ourselves, basically, we're dealing with different aspects of ourselves. And then when you see those kind of like, like icky or like uncomfortable aspects show up, we, we, we kind of like, ooh, like, you know. Um, so that part is very hard to deal with because we ha we are forced [00:43:00] to look at ourselves all the time.

Mindy: Oh, totally, totally. Yeah. I mean, if you're with the right group of people who like it and somebody who's had some experience in setting up the protocols and you can get a work trader to manage the garden, it's all really possible. But I, one of my frustrations about modern life is that the requirements of modern life in my lifetime, in the last 20 years have gotten so crazy that nobody really has the spare time,

zhou-fang: Hmm.

Mindy: you know?

zhou-fang: Yeah, because who, who has the capacity?

Mindy: has the capacity, right?

zhou-fang: Yeah. No, I hear you. And that's, I think that's gonna be a. Continuous, almost like, um, a a, a discussion that's gonna have to keep going. I don't know if we have a solution to that, just given the circumstances we're in right now. So,

Mindy: It's where we're gonna go. I would say.

zhou-fang: yeah,

Mindy: is where we're gonna [00:44:00] go. I mean, I don't see any other options.

zhou-fang: Yeah. And speaking of which, where we gonna go? I know you have a couple of. Things and projects and uh, you know, new kind of adventures that you have been working on. Um, as we kind of near, you know, the end of our conversation, do you want to just briefly share about that?

Mindy: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I'll give the, the, the headline version of both my projects right now. Um, the first one, I'm launching a nonprofit that I'm calling Phoenix Flying in response to what's happening with ice. Because I do have expertise in addressing abduction and kidnapping. I would like people who, um, cannot afford.

My prices to be able to access that kind of healing. And so I'm creating a nonprofit arm of what I'm doing. And also healing from that is not [00:45:00] a short journey. So I'm looking to join up with certain types of healing practitioners that I know also really help with healing from, um, what it's like to be abducted and what happens to you, and create a collective model to, so that they can just come in, in crisis.

And know that the triage will happen and be held and get better. And that's just at initial fundraising stages. Um, it's on the Healing Shouldn't be a luxury tab on my website. And then the other project I'm launching, um, is called The Shape of Stuckness, welcoming ambivalence in our relationships, uh, with a Gwendolyn of Artemis.

Coaching, she's a divorce coach and we are gonna help women who have, who are on the precipice of the unknown in their relationship to [00:46:00] welcome in ambivalence

zhou-fang: Mm.

Mindy: and allow that wisdom of ambivalence to be able to take both its shape and its own time. And. Uh, walk them through whatever journey that might look like for them.

Be it, what transformation might it be to stay, or what transformation might it be to go, you know, or

zhou-fang: Right.

Mindy: So we're gonna have open up a program for women who are wanting support to be able to be in a different shape than what their relationship is now.

zhou-fang: I feel that's so timely and so needed. Um, I feel women carry the weight of navigating very complex relationships, either domestically or, you know, externally. Like we are, we are the carriers. We always carry

Mindy: Yes, yes, yes,

zhou-fang: yeah, and we don't, we just [00:47:00] don't have the kind of support that's t. Um, so yeah, so definitely keep us posted on your projects, both and the shape of stuckness. Um, yeah, would love to be able to learn more as you develop and maybe we'll have a second chat.

Mindy: Hmm. Yeah, I would,

zhou-fang: chat.

Mindy: love that. You've been such a, um, generous and empathetic guide today. It was really lovely to connect with you in this way.

zhou-fang: Um, me too. I'm very grateful that we met.

Mindy: Yeah. Yeah. And it, it will my website be in the, in the show notes.

zhou-fang: sure. Yeah. I will put your website in the show

Mindy: Okay, great. Thanks.

zhou-fang: and your LinkedIn.

Mindy: Yep. Great. Thanks.

zhou-fang: And, uh, so, so that will be how people connect with you. And I'm very, I'm just, [00:48:00] I'm grateful you moved to Portland.

Mindy: Me too. It's been such a warm welcome, like really you and so many other people. Such a warm welcome. Thank you.

zhou-fang: Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you for joining me today. Uh, and now the sun has come out. So, yay.

Mindy: can go stick our feet in the, in the, in the grass for a minute here on our lunch break, right? Yep.

zhou-fang: gonna stick my head out. No, I'm actually gonna go for a little walk.

Mindy: Me too. Yeah. Great. All right. It was so great to connect with you. Thank you for having me, and thanks for listening everybody.

zhou-fang: Uh, yeah. Thank you so much and we'll chat soon

Mindy: Okay,

zhou-fang: Take care.

Mindy: you too.

zhou-fang: I'll talk to you. Oh, uh, hold on. I'm gonna stop recording.