"Our Bodies Are Designed To Handle Truth," with Marie Cacao, on Honoring Intersectional Identities, Embodiment (somatic), and Caring without Carrying.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: All right. It is rolling. Uh, hello everyone. Welcome to the Intersection podcast. Uh, a program about intersectionality and the journeys and the stories that come with it. Um, and we, we have a really important guest here today. Uh, of course all my guests are important. Um, but we have, uh, we have make a difference today because, um, of the program, um, I work with her one-on-one as a therapy client. um, today I invited her to be on the program, not at of course, uh, therapy capacity, but, um, as a host and [00:01:00] guest. Um, so I'm very honored, um, to have her on the show just because we have known each other, um, let's see, seven years, seven, eight years now, give or take,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: something like that. Um, it's been absolutely amazing journey, um, with my guest.

And, uh, so today's just very special to have this opportunity to chat with her, um, as my guest. Uh, so I feel pretty, you know, uh, tickled about that. Um, and her name is Marie Kow and she is a licensed marriage and family therapist, LMFT. Uh, she's based out in Portland, Oregon and has been in practice for a long time. I have been personally, [00:02:00] um, benefited from Marie's work and Marie has a lot of offerings to the community and community at large. So today is my privilege to come and talk with her, and I would love to invite her to introduce herself. Welcome Marie.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Thank you, Joe. Um, yeah, it's such a privilege to be here with you and to get, to have this opportunity both to explore Yeah. A different side of our relationship, a different way of getting to be with each other. And I've gotten to hear of your work doing intersectionality and so admire the work you've been doing.

So it's definitely a privilege to be part of this process with you, um, to introduce myself. Yeah. It's such an interesting question because on the one hand, it's so basic. It's like, well, you just introduced yourself. But I often find myself needing to pause to [00:03:00] really think about what that means. And I think some of that is that it, it is changing how I would introduce myself, keeps changing.

Um.

What fits me now is to say that I am,

I am a white, um, French German and also Native American Mohawk, Iroquois, otherwise known as Haha woman. Um, and I didn't get to be raised in my native tradition, but it is, um, it's definitely impacted my family and I've been learning more about it through some of the [00:04:00] elders in community and through my uncle who does live the practice more regularly, um, and finding out more about my identity as I go.

Not just culturally, but also I would say energetically and spiritually. Um, it is, it has guided and informed a lot of things that I've had senses of but didn't really know how to put words to. Um, okay. And I've known about my French heritage, my German heritage. I also now learn I'm also Austrian, and the Austrian would definitely want you to make that distinction, um, that you're not German, and I appreciate that.

Um, and there are aspects of that that are important for me as well. Um, [00:05:00] but what stands out now in my identity is that I'm both, um, the colonizer and the colonized. And it's a complicated truth for me to be in both, um, and honoring the weight and the multiples of both.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And it's, yeah, it's an ever learning process.

So I, you know, I'm imperfectly finding my way through that. Um, so that's about, yeah, the most immediate. I am, um, one of nine children. I'm the ninth of nine children and I grew up in northeastern Oregon. I left home when I was 16 and unbeknownst to me, joined the cult that I was in until I was 2020. And, um, [00:06:00] I was gonna become, or I was considering becoming their version of a nun.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um. And I knew that if I was gonna discern to do that, I needed to do it before I went to college. So I did it in high school and ended up in Rhode Island as a result of that. Um, and I've had a very interesting life. I've lived in many places. Um, and for the last, let's see, I moved here in 2008, so what is that?

I think coming up on 18 years now, um, that, uh, that I've lived here in Portland, which has been lovely and it is the most home for me that I've had, um, since I was born. I do consider Montana also home for me. That's where my mother is from and I'm very connected to her family and [00:07:00] to the reservation that she was born on.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: even though it's not the.

In native community, you might move from place to place, um, and live, you know, be invited to, to live on and participate in a native community that might not be directly yours. So that's the Salish Kni, um, or also known as Flathead Reservation.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And that's where my mom was born. Um, my great-grandmother immigrated there from Canada

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and yeah.

And then my mom moved off the reservation when she was very young. Um, 'cause her family needed money, so they were looking for any possibility they could find. And moved up north to Martin City, which is also named after a family relative. My great Aunt Bina Martin [00:08:00] and my grandfather started a grocery store to.

Feed the people that were building the Hungry Horse Dam. And that's really where my mom grew up and where her family, she still has siblings that live there. So Montana has a lot of history for me, especially the mountains I'm very connected to. And I get to go back and stay with my uncle who's an elder in the community and a medicine man, and been getting to have a lot of gift and connection with him.

Um, so let's see. To answer the question, I dunno if I'm still answering it. I'm,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: You are on track.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: yeah. So all of these pieces, um, I grew up very conservative Catholic. The cult I joined was, was, and still is within the Catholic church,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: um, called Christie and. There were aspects of that that I [00:09:00] appreciated. I mean, I, I do still very much value ritual and I would consider myself in certain ways culturally Catholic, the way somebody who's Jewish might consider themselves culturally Jewish, but not necessarily go to synagogue.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um, so like, you know, I keep a, I keep an advent wreath that is part of a preparation in this period, but it's, for me, less so focused on the Christ child and more about the gift of Solstice season and this time of being quiet and going inward and having reflection coming to a place of peace within ourselves that enables us to bring peace and joy and kindness to the world.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: So those are all integrated practices for me, but it is much more of the flavor that fits me now than how I was raised. And I'm definitely an anomaly in my family. I'm, uh.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um, [00:10:00] yeah, I definitely don't fit any of the molds or the ideas of what they believe or think should be or thought would be,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and I'm okay with that.

Um, it's been a long journey to come to acceptance of that and recognition that my difference that is authentic for me can mean at times a separation and a loss of what would appear to be connection.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And I do mean what would appear to be connection, because what I thought was connection many times has been, um, more like fitting a construct or, um, fitting into other people's idea of how you should be so that you're treated a certain way.

Less and less. Do I trust that or do I want that even in my life? Because that's, in order for that connection to [00:11:00] continue, you keep having to kind of fit that mold versus continue to listen to what's growing and building inside you that may want and need to be outside those constructs

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and the connections that I do have that are very connective, are so expansive and, um, diverse and holding multiples and, um, just like with you and I, right?

Like we're exploring a relationship

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that yes, hold space and grace for our therapeutic relationship, but isn't bound only to that

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: taking seriously what that is, right? And, but allowing for the, the difference. And that's not something I would've been able to do before. I started to recognize how living in constructs was too rigid and limiting.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Although it can be comforting, I [00:12:00] recognize how living it within a construct can definitely feel comforting.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. It can be, but oftentimes it's temporary. It's like,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: you know, for the time being.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: right. Exactly. And I think what we often don't realize, or at least I didn't realize, is how temporary they are. They seem, they have, there's often a, um, an illusion that it lasts and then you find out how it doesn't. I think about this in terms of like body image, right? When you fit a construct of what society deems as beautiful or fit or attractive, and then you no longer fit that construct.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: It really can seem like, but that's, that's the right way to be. And if your body's changing, there's something wrong with you and you must not be doing something right

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: versus, wait, maybe we need to look at the construct and what's happening about that. Um, or religion [00:13:00] or, I don't know, you name it. Societal beliefs, social justice practices.

Like I feel like you could name anything. Um, , yes. A psychotherapist and I that term versus a counselor. Different people would use those words interchangeably, and I often do as well. But for me, the importance and distinction is around, I'm not there to so much give skills or be directive or tell someone what to do or how to do it so much as to be alongside in a journey of supporting them to deepen their awareness of who they are themselves and how their body is working to guide them and teach them and help them in what they're most needing and wanting.

And that tends to be a longer relationship 'cause it's a process about [00:14:00] patterns and relationship with oneself and different parts of oneself. Um, and so to that end, I, I consider myself more psychotherapist. Having real relationship then counselor in giving guidance, advice, skills, building. Not to say I don't touch on any of those elements in my work, 'cause I do.

Um, but that's not my primary focus.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah, that's very helpful. Um, I feel there is a lot to, there are many like touch points, uh, in your story there. And I really want to, kind of cut out the fact that, um, I mean, professionally you are a therapist. Uh, at the same time, you know, because of your [00:15:00] own experience growing up, I can also see you as a healing person, right?

Like in order to help other people heal, you have to heal yourself as well.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes. Like in living my own practice of healing.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right. And that's, that's not easy. And um, you mentioned, you know, a large part of your identity is being the, the colonizer and the colonized at the same time. it's not your choice. Like you can't choose it. So how do you honor that, weight, um, in your own way?

I think, perhaps if you would maybe share a little bit, how do you work that identity or blend that identity in your practice, either professionally or personally, just to help our listeners, um, [00:16:00] understand a little bit of that, that part of your intersectionality.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah, that's a good question.

I think the most honest answer is it's an ever evolving practice. I don't have, and this actually feels intentional, um, in the work I'm doing in my own, um, personal growth work and guidance from elders in my life that I'm not supposed to know, but really stay in curiosity and attunement, um, or pre know anyways there.

It's not that I don't know things, but I don't move from this pre knowing that I felt like I used to have, um,

the [00:17:00] both and feel so important to me. I am colonizer and colonized. I am, that is in me deeply. I feel the wounds of that and I feel the urge to, um, use my power and privilege against others. And I don't desire or want that in me, but I can't say that I don't feel that pull. 'cause I do.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: working to be very mindful and careful about that is really important to me.

My fear of appropriating is very strong. And

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: many conversations I've had with elders is about like, can I do that? Is that okay? Am I, should I even say that I'm native? That seems so much and maybe extreme to acknowledge when I wasn't raised that way. And

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it's been a long [00:18:00] journey to. I come into a deeper understanding of what that means for me.

That it's not about percentage, it's not about where did I live or what exact practices was I raised in or have I done, but more do I understand what is the, what it means to in fact be native and do I respect that and do I honor what that is? And also do I honor where I don't have that experience personally, um, but I see how others have or how they've been impacted.

So

to translate how I do that in my work,

I believe that all of us have. Multiple intersectional identities. Right? And maybe it might not be as dramatic as being [00:19:00] part colonized and part colonizer,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: but there are parts of us, some would say like our shadow side and our light side or our, um, higher self or our lower self, or whatever terms you might use that we have within us.

And that need to be acknowledged, not denied. And it is tempting to just wanna present the light and just present the good and the knowledgeable. But yeah, one of the ways I've noticed the showing up in my work is needing to own and acknowledge my own struggle, needing to bring in what I'm having in real relationship with my clients, which I believe in if I'm sharing part of my experience or story that feels relevant to what I'm.

Working with a client or supporting them around that I don't, that I'm, I'm intentional and not just sharing [00:20:00] what I learned that was good, but also sharing my struggle.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Not struggle as in it's all fixed and, and cleaned up, but like how I struggle and struggle lifetime. Um, and something about that feels like a kind of honest humility and accountability that is important to have.

And if I'm inviting and challenging others to do that work, I need to be practicing and living that work.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um,

what else would I say? I, I think another piece is I, I keep getting more information both in my learnings from mentors. But also a way that I experience what I would call like energetic movements or energetic messages, um, that have to do with[00:21:00]

recognizing how we're impacted by colonized energy and what's happening in our body when we're moving from what I would consider indigenous energy or native to the land energy. So it doesn't mean you have to be Native American or um, or native in, in like, uh, Aboriginal way, but you're, you're grounded in, in the land and in your body and in the fullness of what it is to be a human being on this earth.

Um, and colonized energy is for me, so much this power over this trying to capture this looking like we know this. Um. But not in a, this opportunity is given taking advantage, but like, I'm gonna make this mine. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that 'cause I get to, or 'cause I can

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: [00:22:00] Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: proving versus, um, like openness in a lot of not knowing, a lot of not knowing and a lot of genuine curiosity and making sure it's genuine.

Not just curiosity to manipulate a situation to get somewhere or to get something outta someone, but curiosity that has unknown in it and allows for things to reveal that we could have never imagined.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Uhhuh.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um,

one of the ways I can tell when I am moving from that energy is that it resonates at a deeper level than I could imagine with others.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And I. I'm able to offer perspectives or words or just simply energy that is much more attuned to what people need. And this is both within my practice as a therapist, but not only

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I work with friends and with people in the community and, and it connects to other wisdoms that exist around the world.

It doesn't feel singular. It's not this is the right way. It's like

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: this is an element of what feels like holistic and wholesome and balanced energy that has been found in all different cultures around the world for hundreds and thousands of years. And I just get this unique opportunity to tap into it.

But it's not mine. I don't own it. I can't and don't wanna package it. Um, I'd like to share it. I'd like to support others in finding their own way to. It in ways that are authentic for them. But yeah, I, I definitely have an aversion to like, packaging it in some way that's now commodified, though. The

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: [00:24:00] colonizer part of me has,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: but I, I'm grateful.

That's not really where I wanna move in. It's just, I can feel that those ideas come

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: like, oh, you could make money off this. Oh, you could do this. Oh, you could charge X, Y, Z. And it's like, yeah, I know that world. And, um,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I don't like participating in it. I don't like receiving it and I don't wanna give it.

That's not how I wanna live.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And if what I'm doing can't make a living, then that's okay. Then that's maybe what needs to be, you know, I'm not, um. I know I need to make a living, but I feel like more and more I'm needing to trust, like where the money will come and how my bills will get paid is not mine to manage, like show up where I can do what I can but don't, don't move out of scarcity, don't cling.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And that is [00:25:00] of course, easier said than done, but

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: feels more true and I have a lot more peace actually when I'm moving from that place.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: That is interesting. Um, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, like for me, like I can feel that energy is, uh, it's almost this kind of push and pull, but it's in a healthy way, right? You are not denying the part that is like coming from the colonizer part. It is powerful, right? Like there, that's why so many people are driven

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it's a real drive for a lot of people. At the same time, that's not the only That's not the only factor in your life that dictates. are you gonna live your

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: there comes the other part [00:26:00] of it. It's the, you know, part that's, that was colonized there is a negative, I think, connotation to it. At the same time, I think there's something beautiful about it is to, um, to like acknowledge that it's like the acceptance.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um, we are not powerless when it comes to, um, capitalism. I think that's important to acknowledge as well, like as powerful as it is, there are parts of us that can counter it.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: most definitely. Most definitely.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. And it's interesting 'cause as you say it that way, I think about how

often the, the colonizer energy in me is one that [00:27:00] Yeah. Acts like is, has a bravado and, and can act. Mm. More knowledgeable than I am, I would say, as an example to present a certain way,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and the colonized energy in me actually is this deep, quiet wisdom that is calm and steady and, um, much more humble. What I would consider genuine, humble, not false, not putting myself down, but, but recognizing that mostly, I don't know,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: are things I know and I, and mostly I don't know, and I see even how that has happened in the history of my family

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and watching those, 'cause even, you know, I'm, I'm native on my mom's side, but on my mom's side there is also colonizer and colonized.

Even, even [00:28:00] so immediately that my great aunt like five, six times. Built a boarding school, a native bullet boarding school,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Wow.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and my grandmother went to that boarding school and was harmed at that boarding school.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Wild.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And I don't doubt when my great aunt built it, she was thinking this was supportive. Right. She was a nun. She was the woman who helped start all of Providence Hospitals. And I, I do believe she'd be rolling in her grave if she knew what was happening at Providence Hospitals. Now,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: God.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: compared to her intention to help from her perspective, natives, you know, reservations had just been built.

They were struggling. They were needing help. And I think her idea of bringing religion and support and structure was the sense of it being helpful. And to some degree it was, but of course it wasn't clean and it wasn't, um. [00:29:00] It didn't have all good intention, whether, how much of that was hers or not, I don't know.

But it definitely got co-opted and got even worse that her order ended up, I, I don't know how, but they ended up stepping aside and another order took over that same boarding school, which is the order that was in charge when my grandmother went. And it got, it was very bad at that point. Um, but I think about this in terms of how

so much of what I see in, again, what I would call like indigenous or native wisdom, doesn't need to preach, doesn't need to impress upon people really anything. You have full freedom. I just will be who I am as I am. I will support and protect my own family and my community, but I don't need to convince anybody of anything

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that.

Quiet [00:30:00] kind, also very like generous, right? They would help people, they do still help, people that they might feel very differently about, got taken advantage of and, and ugh, disrespected at the highest level.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And I see ways how that still happens. And I can feel that in myself how, like I can dismiss that quieter part of me to go to the other part of me that's louder and that gets more tension and looks better and has more, um, effective, I put that in quotation marks, ways of getting needs met

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: by making more money or looking more popular or, you know, whatever the thing is.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: But I've also lived long enough now to feel how shallow that really [00:31:00] is and how, um, unsatisfying it is. How much more anxiety it just keeps creating. Because if I move from that place, then I have to keep moving from that place. There's never a stopping point. There's never enough.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Nobody arrives. That's why colonization is so sick on so many levels.

It didn't stop. You know, we have this narrative in our country that while colonization was so long ago, and it's like, no, no, no, it's still happening.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: It is in our culture all over the place. We have learned to colonize our own bodies

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: we can't even imagine.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yep.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: It's not stopped, and that's a complete lie.

Just like we like to lie about racism. Oh, that happened so long ago. What? No, no, no. It's firmly embedded. It is the air we breathe all the time.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Nobody escapes it.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And that honesty [00:32:00] is so important, I think, for us to be grounded in a real world. And it actually does, I believe, bring us peace because our bodies, I believe, are so amazingly designed to handle truth,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: even the most painful truths. But it does need truth. It does need honesty. It does not do betrayal. It does not do lying.

It does not do partial truths and avoidance. It doesn't do that well, and we get sick from all of that appropriately. There is a reason our society is as sick as it is, and much of it is because of these continued lies we live. Where we're not grounded in what is the most true, honest history. Not just that we've had, but that we live now, current, present times,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: starting with our own body, starting with the bodies that we [00:33:00] love right near around us, our community, our larger community, the world, right?

Society at large.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I love them. Um, I think you are right, you know, um, especially for a female body or people who identify as woman. I mean, yeah, our body is designed to hold truth. I mean, I'm sure guy's body too. Um,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes. They also are designed that way.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: yes. And of course folks in between. Um, and I think about, you know, what you just said, our body is designed to handle truth. Like for me it's like, yeah, of course it's in our uterus. Like what?

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right. Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: we, we don't talk about it because [00:34:00] we don't like to talk

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: uterus you know, I, okay, so I, I don't know if I can say it correctly scientifically, but I think when our grandmother in our grandmother's body, does he have, like, because when, if grandmother has our mother, then mother already has the eggs

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that will eventually one of them will become us. So when our grandmother is having our mother, we are already there in theory or like in a way. So yeah, it is a genetic and it's a generational. The truth is being passed down by all these bodies. Um, all the stories and, uh, [00:35:00] you know, traumas of course.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: so you mentioned body a couple times already, and part of your practice, it is somatic and it is movement. Um, I'm curious to learn more about, you know, what's your practice in, because talk therapy, like we are familiar with

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: we

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm. Sure. Right.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: um, but somatic therapy or to combine that with, um, talk therapy, um, perhaps that's not as common yet. you are also someone who values, uh. Ritual a lot, and a lot of that is about the movement of our body and our energy and our spirits. So I'm curious about your, um, kind of a [00:36:00] practice with, the movement of the body and the mind,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Sure.

Um, I would first start by saying that somatic is a word that those who either have done a fair amount of therapy or familiar in the, with psychological terms, may know so does mean body, but I personally like the term embodiment because it feels very. Clear and, um, simple.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I'm, I'm appreciating simple language more and more as I get older.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I like that.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. Um, I think so often we mask things with clinical and complicated language, and that's not helpful for anybody. Um, especially those who may already be treated as lesser for not knowing terms or, again, not fit those [00:37:00] constructs. Um, so for me, the practice of embodiment alongside what is yes, also classically known, traditionally known as talk therapy, really came from my own learning as I was doing my own therapy and getting to a point of recognizing like, I, I very much care about my therapist.

I have learned a lot, but I'm reaching this kind of this. Invisible wall, and I can tell there's more, but I don't know how to get past it with this same practice. And I had a, a dear friend at the time and colleague who had started doing more embodiment work, um, somatic work. And he was sharing how much it had impacted his anxiety and how much he was feeling relief from that.

So I got very curious about that. [00:38:00] And I ended up getting to work with his same therapist for a while. Um, and, um, did what is part of my practice. Now, REAN also known, so Wilhelm Rech. This is different than Reiki. Um, Wilhelm Reich who started a kind of therapy called Organy is 'cause it deals with the organs, the body organs.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Oh.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And his work actually has profoundly impacted a lot of different somatic work. But he was, um,

very misunderstood and also did, uh, I don't use this term, lightly become

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: quote unquote crazy at the end. Meaning

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: he had a, he had a true breakdown. His work was taken and manipulated by the American [00:39:00] government. He had to flee from Austria, um, because of the Nazis.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And he eventually, um, made it to the US and I think he lived in Maine, if I remember correctly.

And they used a lot of his ideas in the military, um, for manipulation purposes. And that was deeply disturbing to him. He didn't want that. He ended up in jail because of McCarthy, thinking he was communist and going to do all kinds of bad things. And between that and, and many other things, he, he basically went insane.

So

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: he got kind of blacklisted and people don't know much about him as a result. But my point is that in doing the orgon, which is his belief, was that our body wants to have a kind of natural wholeness and ease. And it's looking for the original wholeness and ease that we were born with, [00:40:00] provided we didn't have trauma in utero.

And that his original study, which was of the orgasm, was that the reason we are most drawn to having an orgasm

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: because post orgasm we come back momentarily to the greatest ease and release that our body knows. That's the closest to what it's like when we were born.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And that state is actually what our bodies are in various different ways trying to come back to.

But we've gotten all these interruptions and what he would call armoring that develops from trauma and, um, small and small T and big T trauma as well as

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: neglect and any number of practices, avoidance society, you know, there's many elements.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And so as I started to do that work that is mostly non-verbal, um, it just was so [00:41:00] apparent there was so much my body was waiting for me to attune to and learn how to listen to and release.

And immediately the shift became from. Analyzing and trying to make sense of to listening and being led by, and that naturally flowed into other embodiment work and practices that I experienced that resonated where the primary focus is learning how to listen to the wisdom of your body, not direct your body.

And that most of what we do, when I talked earlier about how we are colonized in our bodies and we've learned to colonize our bodies, I believe and see that as how we've learned to manage them versus to listen to them

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and our injuries. And so, so many of the [00:42:00] problems we struggle with come from that place of learning to manage and thinking we need to just manage better,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: not recognizing, wait, how is that actually.

Other problems that continue. So after, you know, getting to live that, which is part of also how I got into therapy in the first place, feeling the benefit of therapy, um, it became so clear that talk therapy was so limited and it's, it is a gift and it's important. But all the blocks I was having with clients I resonated so deeply with because I could tell it's not that they can't use more support, it's that I can't offer them more support through words.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And it's not through my wisdom. It's through helping them tap into their body wisdom.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: That's when I, you know, for me, a lot of my personal work has been, yes, recognizing that I'm needing to attend to something or I have [00:43:00] some interruption and I'll attend to that, but also recognizing in my practice where I can feel like there's some block or there's some inability to support someone.

In a attuned way, not 'cause I don't want to, but I just don't have it.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Inevitably, as I get more curious about that, it touches something more personal in my life where I didn't have enough support or didn't know how to take care of myself. So it just keeps inviting me back into my own practice, especially my own embodiment and spirituality practice, um, which inevitably enables me to show up with more for others.

Um, and I'm grateful for that. I mean, there's absolutely no way I would've done the kind of, and the amount of work I've done on myself if it hadn't been for that gift and challenge of wanting to support others and wanting to do it in a way that is ethical [00:44:00] and mindful of not burning myself out because I don't believe.

It's any of my client's responsibilities if I'm resentful or burned out, that is information about me,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: not something. They're just being themselves. Um, so if I'm struggling with that, then I need to go look here. Not

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes. Going back to

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: exactly. So I dunno if that fully answered your question.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: It does, and I think it's really profound and definitely takes a while to digest. Um, I mean, I, I used the word embodiment from time to time, but I haven't really experienced that, uh, the way you described it. Um, partially because this is not the word I knew, you know, growing up it's a learned word for me. Um, but I think the way you described it makes a lot of sense, especially, you know, when you describe [00:45:00] as adults, like, we have that drive to pursue orgasm or like a, a Kleenex. Like it doesn't have to be sexual.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right. Oh yeah,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Like it can be other things too, like get on a rollercoaster,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: definitely. Yep.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: for example. And to kind of relate that to. You know, when we are born, of course, I don't remember how that felt, but I imagine, you know, as, um, as a body like a, a, a, something that's living alive, coming out through the vessel of our mother, like you are literally squeezed out of that vessel of that tunnel and the moment you come out, like, I don't know, it exhilarating, I guess.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: a huge exhale.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. [00:46:00] Like,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I mean,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: me.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: you have to go through the, the death, the small death of taking your first breath, which is why, you know, a baby is often like, um, tapped or hit kind of even hard on the back to help them breathe.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And there is, some folks have described it as like almost this immediate fear of will I be able to breathe?

Not that a baby thinks those thoughts per se, but that there's like, I'm going from one world into a new world, right? I'm going from a world of fluid into a world of air.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: That's a huge transition.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that, there's also this deep exhale.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And I think about every time we arrive at a point of relief

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it comes with an exhale.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: A sunset.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Getting to lay in our beds after a long day,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: arriving from a long flight,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: receiving our loved [00:47:00] one who we've been worried about, and getting to give them a hug.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Eating after we've been famished,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: drinking when we've been thirsty,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: certainly, yes, post orgasm. And again, that doesn't have to be sexual, right?

You can have an orgasm that's not sexual,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: any of these things are.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. It's de it's, it's a sigh. And you know, I, think about what you just said about embodiment and earlier, you know, how to have that intersectional relationship with the colonizer identity and the colonized identity. I mean, I don't know if this is the right word that you would say, um, but in this moment what comes to my mind is surrender. Like it's a form of surrender. And I don't wanna, you know, surrender can [00:48:00] mean a lot of things. And, a lot of people may mean to a lot of people, it may mean like, give up or give in. Like, that's not what I meant here.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: What I, what I mean here is to just, you know, open your hands and to exhale, like you said,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and to just let go.

It's like, it's okay,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes. It's okay. Yes,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it's okay. You can surrender into it. You can be heavy.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: yes,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um, um,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: yes. Those are all perfect descriptions of what I believe our bodies are always looking to come back to. And you mentioned something earlier, Joe, that. I think is also important. When you said like, I don't remember what it's like to be a baby. You may not remember cognitively, but there have been many very interesting and good studies that show our body [00:49:00] memory is so much deeper than we can understand.

It's part of how, now I do quite a bit of work with folks around sexual trauma and childhood sexual trauma, which might be preverbal childhood, um, and how they can know and trust that they were in fact abused, is this process of learning how to listen and attune to the body and what it knows and how it shows and teaches us what it knows.

So to that end, what your body may know and remember about this state of surrender, of letting go

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: could be actually much more. Deep and profound, then your mind might realize.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: But if we're busy being in our minds all the time, and our minds of course, are important and necessary and very beneficial, but if we only or primarily inhabit that part of [00:50:00] us, we lose access to all this other wisdom and knowing and knowledge that comes in very different forms.

And to me, this is also where, like our body is more of that native, that indigenous place that is, tends to be quieter. It tends to be, um, it, it doesn't have a bravado, it doesn't make big statements. I mean, it'll get loud when it's injured. It'll get loud when it's time to be righteously angry. But it doesn't talk at us the way our brains do.

And part of that is because our brains are what learn to take in the external messages.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: mm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Bodies do that by how our brains tell us to absorb it and now what we've done to our body. So then our body feels like I need to be a certain way because I'm supposed to, but not because that's organically how I wanna be.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And making that distinction, of course, can be a whole [00:51:00] process, but the, the knowledge our body has of how it has been, how it wants to be, where it wants us to go is so fascinating and it'll, it'll lead us uniquely, it'll, each person I work with, that journey looks completely different.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And that is.

Beautiful and humbling as well. Like I'm not supposed to know for them how their body wants to move. And again, it's not that I don't know anything, it's that my knowledge is only beneficial if it's in support and resonant with what's already happening in their body.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And if it is, it shows and if not, it's let it go.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: hmm. Yeah, it's, uh, it's more of like ancient that [00:52:00] the modern mind doesn't recognize very much. Uh, but it's there.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes, very much so. Yeah. And you can see it from culture to culture to culture.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: definitely. Um, I definitely think we need to have episode number two because there are a lot of things that I'm like, I really want to ask about that, but.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Okay.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: This is the next very important thing I want to ask, um, before we wrap up, is, um, you know, over the years you've done a lot of work, uh, with clients one-on-one, and I know, um, I mean, you are on your own journey.

Like, I don't know what your journey looks like, but you are on your own journey, and you are starting to offer more kind of community offerings, um, outside of the one-on-one, uh, sessions or, uh, relationships.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Um, so I'm [00:53:00] curious to learn about that. Like what inspired you to do more community events and, um, what should people know about them?

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: sure. Yeah. Thank you for that question. Um, yes. So part of what inspired I. I have been a trainer, um, primarily in the Gestalt community, which is also one of the modalities that I use,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: um, for several years. And I even started an institute in 2018 that we ended up having to close in 2020 because of COVID and knowing that the work really needed to be in person and not online.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: But as I was discerning what would come next, I really felt called to a fallow period. To me fallow. I grew up on a farm, so I use sometimes, um, agricultural terminology. It's a period where you intentionally let the land, the fields stay unplanted and untended [00:54:00] to, to let them organically, uh, release what they need to release, grow what they need to grow and, and become nurtured in a way that helps you discern what they're ready to grow next.

And it used to be done in ancient cultures every seven years you would let the land go, go fallow. Um, unfortunately that is been lost in a lot of areas, but for me to go fallow meant to intentionally not plan anything and just stay open to listening and learning and, and entrusting more would reveal.

And so much of what has been revealing over, well, I guess I would say the last five years

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: is to move away from efforting, which is the close cousin to managing [00:55:00] and to move away from scarcity and pressure and anxiety. Move much more into a state of openness, curiosity, surrender in that term you used earlier,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: um, generosity, abundance, and attunement.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: me, attunement is about real deep, deep listening and listening to what is happening in people. Listening to what is needed in community, in the community, in community, in connection, in connection to our own bodies. And from that, I just started having all these different conversations with people and there were some themes that developed that just kept getting more and [00:56:00] more clear and more and more con confirmation from various different sources about, okay, there may be something here.

And I started asking people like, how would you feel about. A workshop that's on this type of topic, is that something you'd be interested in? Would you be drawn to? Because it was part of conversations we'd already been having

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and literally everyone I talked to, not just clients, but like anybody and everybody I would talk to about it, the energy was so immediate in excitement and curiosity for it.

It was just honestly a bit shocking. Like, wow, this isn't just like, oh, that'd be cool. It was like, oh my God, yes, please. We really need that. And this kind of, uh, almost starving poor energy. And so I just paid closer attention to that. But the thing that kept not revealing was how do I do this without efforting because I wanna do it, but I am full and my practice has been full since 2016.

I have not had any [00:57:00] consistent opening since then.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And so. To do this work means I have to actively either cut quite a lot outta my practice, which feels hard to do when already more people wanna get in and I have to ask them to wait for long periods, or I'm happy to refer them out, but unfortunately, most of my colleagues are full as well.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Or I need help. That's from some source. I can't imagine. And the latter appeared amazingly, this, uh, spring and then summer, and I have a, a dear friend and support who has offered to step in to help enable these to happen.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Wow.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: have just come together in wildly transformative and organic and easeful ways, um, that just, it's just incredible.

Um, so to that end, I [00:58:00] just did a workshop. Um. November 22nd. That was primarily for women and, um, I would say female socialized bodies. That was about the difference of, it was funny. The title I chose, I, I mistitled it. I said, um, caring Without Caring, but it really, I mean, holding without caring, but it actually was supposed to be caring, C-A-R-I-N-G,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: without caring C-A-R-R-I-N-G.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Because that distinction of how do we care about without taking care of particularly men in our lives who are used to, mostly because of the way they're socialized. And of course these are generalizations, leaning on women for guidance and leaning on women for [00:59:00] support around. Emotional development that we need to not do so much work for them

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: a more balanced way of being so that we're not resentful of them and we're loving on them and respectful of them, and supportive to them, and nurturing as we naturally wanna be, but not overextending ourselves, not causing harm to our own bodies because of the struggle their bodies have to do this work on their own and with other men.

So that was the, that was the title, CA. Caring Without Caring. Um, and yeah, it was just an incredible workshop. It went so well and was so easeful. Truly no efforting. And I feel like everybody who showed up needed to be there and was ready to be there. And. Things appeared organically in ways I couldn't have imagined.

I did some prep for sure, but

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: like [01:00:00] what I'm used to doing and it just, it was so good. So that one happened. There's another one coming up January 31st, which is called What Your Body Already Knows. And this is for all folks. Um, it's primarily focused on learning how to, what I call drop in. So in the embodiment practice that I do, it's this way of learning how to quite literally drop lower than our next down the, into our bodies to learn how to be present.

And yes, learn how to listen, but even if you don't hear something, learning how to be in relationship with your body that is more attuned and more curious and holding space,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: not managing it. And that distinction is not an easy one. Um.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Learning that practice is something that's super valuable, but because we're so unused to it, I think it's helpful to have [01:01:00] the opportunity to do it alongside other people,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: get to practice with other people as well, and have models for what that looks like.

So that's what the workshop is about, and you can read up more on my website. It has more detailed information about it.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that one's coming January 31st. And then the last one that I have currently have scheduled, not to say there won't be others, but is in April, um, April 25th, about how our pain holds wisdom.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And a lot of this is, um, from learnings that I've received from a particular client of mine who's been gracious enough to let me, um, learn more about, she has very extreme levels of pain and, um, honestly should barely be functioning.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: But the work we've done together and the work I've gotten to witness her do has a [01:02:00] lot to do with this larger process that I keep seeing around pain is not there simply to drive us crazy or to,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: It's information.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it's always information, right?

And it can be brutally painful information and it's not, I don't wanna term it as like, well, that's just what needs to happen, or, you know, um, what doesn't hurt you will make you stronger, kind of bullshit. Not that

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Okay.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it's, it's not a mistake either. Like all the pain we experience is inviting us to learn something,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: um, and learning that perspective, which to me, again, is a much more indigenous perspective and not a colonized perspective

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Definitely.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that I'm continuing to learn for sure myself.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: That reminds me of a conversation I had with another practitioner a couple years ago at this point. Um, she's a pain practitioner specifically, [01:03:00] oftentimes pain is telling us it's trying to tell something. And it's not just like when you say, you know, modern medicine is like, treat the pain, just treat the pain. No, sometimes we need to give you a little bit of time. We need to listen to

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: what is the pain trying to say to us?

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right. Yes. Modern medicine wants us to get rid of, right. The pain is a

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: problem, and I'm not gonna say that pain is always something to simply endure. That's not what I'm saying. I'm, I'm really speaking to. What does my body want me to know about why this level of pain is coming to me in the first place?

It's not saying, don't take care of me. It's not saying, don't ever give me relief. But it doesn't want simply masking. It wants learning, right? Like, I have had two spinal injuries, I've had a neck injury and I've had a herniated, um, lower back disc [01:04:00] injury. And both of those, the pain got so intensely high. I did need some medical relief.

I did need an injection to help relieve from the pain. But while I was learning, searching out that process, it also became very clear that my body wanted me to understand why it developed that pain in the first place.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: suddenly get rid of me, but listen to how we ended up with this in, in injury in the first place,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and develop a greater attunement.

Because if you just simply mask, which I've done before that as well, it's just a matter of time before it's gonna have to reappear. 'cause I didn't learn the lesson. And that happens in every area of our life, right? If, if, if we drive too fast and we keep getting a ticket, but we paid off a ticket, so then hopefully I won't get another ticket.

It's just a matter of time before I'm gonna do it again. If I don't learn what's happening, that I keep driving so fast when I don't, I know what the speed limit is. [01:05:00] I don't need to, maybe I'm not giving myself enough time to get where I'm going.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Maybe I'm too aggressive in my driving, maybe I'm impatient, whatever the thing is,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: or I'm not being mindful, then the ticket is really inviting.

The pain of the ticket is inviting me to slow down, to pay attention to what is happening that I'm here,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: not simply pay the price and then do it again.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right. Well, the thing is you might not have the chance to do again.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Right, that too.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: So,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And our bodies will only give us so many chances. This is also part of why men so frequently die from heart attacks and from heart problems

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: ugh.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: that they're, I know it's sad, but men even more so than female, socialized bodies are not supported to listen to their bodies.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.[01:06:00]

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: They're supported to override them even more than we do,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and they are given props and validation and all different kinds of accolades for managing their bodies better.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Coach through

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Push through. Don't cry. Suck it up. Be strong. Build more muscle. Right? It's not about attunement. And so then they get to retirement age, many of them. And what happens?

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: and they died.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: They have all these health problems and often yes, die from heart attacks. The number one cause of death for men is heart problems, heart failure.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Oh man. Okay.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And I don't know if this is the current statistic, but the number one cause of death for women was men.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Nah,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm. I know.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: violence?

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. God, that's so [01:07:00] bleak.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: It's

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Uh, we have to end the conversation

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: it's place to end the conversation.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: We need to somehow make it a little bit more positive.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Okay. I'm totally down for that. Um, well, okay. Authentically.

Pain always is alongside joy.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: This is the pain that is inviting us to make changes in our lives, right? What we've been talking about, colonization and being colonized, learning to listen to deeper wisdoms versus learning to manage. When we recognize the degree of risk and harm and struggle that happens, then there is this natural, organic, necessary opening to true hope, true change, [01:08:00] true relief and beauty.

And that's why I am doing what I'm doing. That's why I believe in this work for myself and for others because it actually does get different. It is phenomenal how different it gets my life now. Is wildly different.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I got into this work because I was suicidal and I attempted a couple times

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: did not wanna go to therapy, but my mentor at the time said, I will not continue to work with you unless you go to therapy.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I was livid and it was so helpful because it enabled me to start to see, oh, I make sense. Oh, these struggles are real and they're deep.

And progressively my life has changed as I've let in the support that I needed all along.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: And that's what all of us need. I'm not unique in that. And when we let it [01:09:00] in and we learn how to support ourselves in the ways our bodies are asking us to, amazing amounts of beauty and ease and flow and connection and abundance happen,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Mm-hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: really does.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Um, I think especially now Yeah.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: people to return to our bodies.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yes.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. So that's, yeah. Thank you for that. And, um, yeah, I believe we need another conversation. Um,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Okay. Uh, it's interesting because I can feel this old part of me that's tempted to like, apologize for maybe having said too much or

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: no,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: things.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: no.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: you're not asking for that, but I [01:10:00] name that because I don't actually wanna move from that. I just can feel that

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Hmm.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: can feel that urge.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I appreciate that. Um.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I would be happy to have another conversation if that

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah, me too. Because there are so many, I mean, I'm sure our listeners will have their own curiosity listening to this as well. There are a couple things where I feel like I really could ask another question, but I don't want to steer the conversation away from the, kind of the direction we were on.

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: sure.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: so definitely, uh, please come back and I can't find you anyway, so

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: You know where I work,

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: I know where you work. Um, I'm not a stalker

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: you even know where I live, at least in terms of what it looks like in my home office.

zhou-fang--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: in theory. Um,

marie-cacao--she-her-_1_12-23-2025_125950: Yeah,

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