"We Can Take Care of Each Other", with Deborah Steinkopf, on Nonprofit Financial Leadership, Community Care, Solidarity Economy, and Active Hope.

Zhou Fang: [00:00:00] All ready. We are recording. Uh, hello, everyone. Welcome to Intersect- "The Intersection," a podcast program about intersectionality, intersectional identities, and intersectional journeys. And among all those journeys, they all come with a unique story, and there is always a person behind a story, and they are here to tell us that. And today, I'm very, uh, humbled and honored to have, uh, a guest on my program who I've known, I think, since, I don't know, 2022 or something like that. Um, we got in touch via some nonprofit work we were both interested in at the time, I think, um, among women's, I think, rights and pay transparency stuff. That's how we got connected. And over the years, I've been, uh, following her work, and it's just been great to [00:01:00] see her community work and trying to teach nonprofit leaders all kinds of strategies, especially in today's environment. So, um, here we have Deborah Steinkopf. Uh, she is the founder of Steinkopf Strategy, I think, and then she's also a co-host of a n- financial course, I think, or financial program for nonprofit, uh, leaders. And I would love to invite Deborah to introduce herself. Welcome, Deborah.

Deborah: Hi, Joe. Thank you for that nice welcome. Um, Debra Steinkopf, she/her pronouns, and yeah, I'm a nonprofit consultant, and I train nonprofit leaders on financial leadership through the Nonprofit Financial Leadership Academy.

Zhou Fang: And I think e- until maybe kind of recently, I didn't know that you came from, like, a very extensive, like, social justice and social [00:02:00] work background. And you started that in Chicago.

Deborah: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: right?

Deborah: Yes. Yes

Zhou Fang: I know you have been in Portland for a long time, and, um, I would love for us to perhaps go down the memory lane and just learn about how you got into social work, 'cause it's, it's not an easy industry, and I know you are-- you have a passion for it.

So can you bring us back in time and tell us how you started?

Deborah: Sure. Um, I was very interested in social work at a very young age because of my family background. I come from, um, a single-parent household. My mom struggled financially. Um, she struggled with, with relationships with bad men, including my father, and it oriented me towards wanting to do good in the world and wanting to [00:03:00] help people.

And if you think back, like I, I was born in 1963. I finished high school in 1981. What were the career paths available to young women that-- back then, right? It was become a teacher, become a nurse, become a social worker. You know what I mean? These were fe-female-dominated fields. And so of those choices, social work appealed to me because, uh, there was kind of a social justice aspect to it.

Like social work by-- social workers by training are, are trained to understand people and their environment, to understand the conditions that impact people's lives, and to not just try to impact individuals, but impact those conditions that create better lives, better communities, stronger communities for people.

And so the, the intersection of sort of j-social justice as well as helping individual people sort of appealed to my sensibilities as a young person, [00:04:00] um, who cared about women's rights especially. And so yeah, I got into social work and also got very interested in, um, sort of macro-level social impact, right?

Because I, I'd done my undergraduate field placement or internship at a Planned Parenthood in, um, 1984, '85. It was the Reagan years, and funding for reproductive healthcare was, um, you know, it wasn't gutted like it, it was in subsequent years, but, you know, things were starting to change. There was some pullback, especially around, uh, reproductive rights and funding for it.

And so then I thought, "Well, if I really care about social justice and women's health and wellbeing, I probably should get involved in policy," right? So I applied to a graduate program of public policy, and after one [00:05:00] semester, I was like, "These are not my people." I re- You know, it was a different, different kind of mindset approach to thinking about work.

And so I was a little bit nervous and I was about my career paths. And I happened to be working for a professor in the School of Social Work at the same university. It was State University of New York at Albany. And I was her research assistant, which is how I managed to finance graduate school. And she said, get an MSW.

You know, you're an MSW at heart. You don't have to give up the policy program. You could do both. I'll get you in the advanced track MSW program. So I did two masters in two years because this person believed in me and said, you could do this. But I still wasn't sure about career paths. And so I applied for a fellowship in New York state government through the Center for Women in Government.

And I got the fellowship and I [00:06:00] was placed with the Legislative Women's Caucus in 1988 for the 1988 legislative session. And what's interesting, you know, is that there was a women's caucus in New York in the legislature in the late 80s. And there was also a task force on women's issues. And those two groups focused on issues of concern to women and families.

And I thought I was going to work on domestic violence policy because that was my interest. Gender-based violence was a lived experience and it was a research focus when I was in graduate school. And I thought I would be able to work on domestic violence policy. But the Legislative Women's Caucus really wanted to focus on women's health issues that session.

And so as a fellow, I was assigned to research different health policy issues and to organize town halls across New York to just gather information from women and women's health activists on what their top [00:07:00] concerns were. And obviously reproductive health, you know, came to the surface. But the real pressing issue, interestingly enough, was the growing number of women with AIDS who were going into hospitals not knowing that they even had HIV and never coming home.

They were dying in hospital. And that became a very urgent issue. The Legislative Women's Caucus worked on an emergency appropriations bill to get some resources into standing up some social service programs for women with AIDS. And that then became my interest, my passion and my path. I really wanted to be involved in setting up programs for women with AIDS.

And so I moved back to Chicago, where I'm from, um, for some personal reasons, and I got involved in nonprofit startups. Um, the [00:08:00] Chicago Women's AIDS Project, I was the second paid staff person there and just built programs and, um, services from, from the ground up with nothing. And, you know, so like Monday through Friday, Joe, I was like working at the Women's AIDS Project, recruiting volunteers, designing programs, doing community outreach and education, and then on the weekends I was going to ACT UP demonstrations.

This was my life in my mid-20s.

Zhou Fang: Wow.

Deborah: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: that was in the '80s?

Deborah: Yes, I worked at the, the Chicago Women's AIDS Project from like 1989 to 1990... Almost two or three years. Um, I'm-- You can imagine I was working a lot, and I was also an AIDS activist, and so I got burnt out pretty quickly. And then money ran out for my position too. It was a seed grant.

It was an early Ryan White [00:09:00] grant program that paid for my position. That was one of the earliest, um, pots of public money available for AIDS services, and it took a lot of, of activism on the part of ACT UP and, and other health justice activists to get some appropriations from the federal government for AIDS services.

And so that paid for me. Uh, it was like a demonstration grant. And so my money was-

Zhou Fang: see. I see. So when-- well, that's very fortunate, and unfortunately, we still hear that a lot these days. It's like, "My position is eliminated because the funding ran out." And I feel like we can talk about that in a minute as well. But I'm really curious, I think, you know, the AIDS crisis in this country and globally, I feel to a large degree, um, it's a terrible thing, um, that happened to humanity and to communities, et cetera. I feel in the United States, it [00:10:00] also showed people how community can come, come together, and the kind of mutual aid and mutual care really can carry people through. And I think that's kind of like a really good lesson for today's kind of community leaders and nonprofit leaders too. And I'm sure a lot of leaders are more or less familiar with the AIDS kind of crisis, uh, in the United States, but I would love to have kind of like a refresher from you. 'Cause I feel people are forgetting about power we have.

Deborah: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: I think we re- we talk about, you know, the shortage of funding and the struggles we have both internally and externally, but I feel we need a little reminder about, um, the power and the strength of community and how to community and mutual care can [00:11:00] actually carry us through a lot of crisis now.

Deborah: Yeah, I love that framing, and I do think that there are amazing lessons from that time, um, for what we're, we're facing now on the community level and on the societal level. And, and so I think that the, the lessons that I would want to share, especially with, with younger people who are, um, frustrated, angry, and feeling despair about the loss of so much and, and the harm that's being done because of the current administration's policies, I think it's important to remember that w-we can build stuff.

You know what I mean? So much is being destroyed, but, you know, if you use the AIDS care system as a case study, like we built that from nothing. Nobody cared about gay men and injection drug users becoming sick and dying of [00:12:00] AIDS back in the '80s, in the early '80s when the epidemic first, uh, you know, on the coasts and then the rest of the country.

And I can only speak from, for the US. I r- um, I wasn't that involved in, um, international AIDS efforts. But, but people didn't care, right? These were like the throwaway people. Gay men were throwaway people. So there wasn't this whole ecosystem of, of social services and healthcare providers. It was ver- it was individual people who decided, "I'm going to care for, for my friends, my loved ones," and they, and they set up informal care systems and networks, and it was stunning.

I mean, there were people who decided to help people with AIDS at end of life because, you know, they, they couldn't get access to hospice care, and, and hospice and palliative care wasn't as established as it is now. So people were doing end-of-life care in their apartments, you know, 'cause end-of-life care ultimately is [00:13:00] just about treating people with dignity and respect and love, and, and the medical system wasn't providing that for people dying of AIDS.

So people opened up their apartments to that. Um, people who couldn't necessarily do a lot of the The caregiving became activists and took to the streets to, um, to raise awareness about the AIDS crisis and to raise money to stand up services and clinics. There were doctors, there were doctors in Chicago, um, infectious disease doctors, um, many of whom were gay, who just opened up their practices for people with AIDS and established, you know, um...

And there have... A f- a few of them have written books. One wrote a memoir, I can't remember his name, but it was a beautiful memoir about, um, how he just started seeing these patients because no one else would see them, and advocating within the hospital system he worked for, I think it was St. Joe's, to treat them with, with dignity, with respect, and to, [00:14:00] you know, become knowledgeable about different, um, medications that were going to treat some of the opportunistic infections that people with AIDS were showing up in hospital with.

So there was this whole sort of informal care network, um, and activist network, and there was overlap between those, that started to just stand up programs, um, informally. And then the, you know, they became more formal, and then today you would describe that as the AIDS social service delivery system, right?

But that came from people wanting to help other people, people that they loved, that they cared for, and they advocated, and they set these systems up. And so the lesson there is even though so much is being taken from us with the clawback of federal funding, especially for, like, safety net services, and federal policies that are directly harming certain groups of people, targeting certain groups of people, I think the [00:15:00] important thing to remember is that we can still take care of each other, and we can still build stuff, right?

And we should, because those systems that were built were never really built to work for everybody. There's always been exclusion and lack of equity in these systems. So as these systems get dismantled, it's an opportunity for us to build new ones that work for everyone. And it, and it's important to remember that we can do this work, right?

Like, w-

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Deborah: we can build it. We've done it before.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Um, I really appreciate that. And, um, if history has taught us anything is that we, if we come together, we can solve the pro- solve problems, we-- and we can take care of each other. Um, so did you start your, um, consulting practice after you moved to Portland?

Deborah: I did after... I lived here for [00:16:00] about Nine or 10 years, and I worked in the s- the nonprofit sector, um, mostly in domestic violence during that time, and then started my consulting practice, uh, in two-- full-time in 2016.

Zhou Fang: Wow, 10

Deborah: Yes. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. It's been a whole journey.

Zhou Fang: yeah, What, uh, what made you decide that I'm gonna go independent and, um, you know, teach or guide, uh, nonprofit leaders?

Deborah: Well, a couple of things. One is, like, I wanted to, to do work where I could add value, and that would also be challenging because I'm a lifelong learner and wanted to continue to learn new things and to grow and, and I, I-- as I was doing direct service work, I again shifted towards the [00:17:00] macro. So I was the executive director of a local domestic violence organization, and there were lots of challenges for that role, and one of the biggest challenges for me was just how under-resourced

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Deborah: violence service delivery system is in Oregon, and that anything that we got from the legislature, we had to fight for, and it was pennies given the, the scale of the work, right?

The, the t- the, the difficulty of the work, working with people in trauma and, trauma, and then the scale of the need, right? Because gender-based violence impacts so many people. And so I, I had to sort of manage an organization, manage a team, continue to raise the budget every year, and I started to realize I wanna work on a different level.

Like, this is, this is too, too exhausting, right? I want to, like, work on systems change, and it's hard to do when you're in the trenches. And so, um, [00:18:00] I, I pulled back from that and started to do consulting so that I can continue to contribute to the field and earn a living, but, um, you know, to focus more on sort of the macro and systemic issues, and to help other nonprofit leaders become successful, because I think one of the trickiest things about becoming a nonprofit leader is you do it because of your passion for the mission.

Hopefully you have some knowledge or, you know, lived experience or content expertise around the mission focus of the work. But, like, we don't hire people because they're great financial managers. And you- We're running these complex organizations, especially if they're getting multiple funding streams and some of those fundings are public dollars.

So we're not hiring people to manage that well. We're hiring people to manage the issue well, the mission-based work well. And so I started to realize, oh, I could really help [00:19:00] build confidence and financial literacy and financial competency by focusing on that.

Zhou Fang: That's such a great, uh, like, like, uh, I don't know, a reckoning of some sort, that, you know, a lot of leaders, they are great people and great people leaders, but they're not very financially savvy. Um, and I mean, I don't know if it's both personally or organizationally, but to a point, a lot of organizations can use that kind of, like, your financial expertise to guide them through. And I wanted to mention the organization you co-founded is called Nonprofit Financial Leadership Academy. So it sounds quite, like, school-like/academic. So maybe tell us more, you know, because money is a such... It's a big topic right now. Like, it- not just, like, personal finance. Of course, we need to buy food [00:20:00] and, you know, pay our bills. And I also think for a lot of nonprofits, they are struggling and, um, so I think your, uh, Financial Leadership Academy, um, really is very important here. So I would love to invite you to perhaps talk more about the, um, academy work you do.

Deborah: Oh, thank you. I think the other thing to mention though, it's not that financial or that nonprofit leaders are bad at financial management. It's just not something that we get good onboarding or training to develop, right?

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Deborah: As you organizational leader, you have to manage the money function, right? And so it's important to have access to the right development opportunities to be able to do that and do it confidently and do it well.

And so that was the impetus behind starting the Nonprofit Financial Leadership Academy with my colleague, Anthony Petchel. We wanted to [00:21:00] Build financial literacy, but also like, like provide a space, like a peer learning environment, a supportive environment where, um, peop- where nonprofit leaders could just learn and have things broken down for them in a way that's easily understood, and then know how to apply these concepts in day-to-day decision-making, in the kind of systems and infrastructure that they build for their organizations.

And so that, that was why we, we started to do it, but we do it from the perspective of, uh, of leadership development, right? It's not just financial management, it's about financial leadership, and it's about sort of understanding, um, the money function your, in your organization so you can make strategic decisions about mission, right?

About delivering your... and about bu-building sustainable organizations, well-resourced organizations. And then, you know, there's a [00:22:00] whole sort of series that we do on, on risk management too, including taking care of your people and sort of connecting that back to like being, um, a good employer, being, you know what I mean?

Like, like taking care of your people, paying a thriving wage, uh, you know, all that, all ties back to the money function of an organization. So if you can't figure out the money function, you're probably not going, doing good fundraising, and you're probably gonna struggle to take care of your people. So let's do that as well as focus on these other things, right?

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I totally agree. And I noticed that, um... So you started the, uh, nonprofit, uh, Financial Leadership Academy in January 2022, around that time, and I sense things, uh, have changed, uh, quite a bit since last year. Can you share a little bit, like, between 2022 to, like, last [00:23:00] year, how things were, and then just kind of a general understanding of the demands and needs, how has the shift been, um, for you, um, per your observation, I think?

Deborah: Yeah. Well, it definitely feels like the nonprofit sector is under attack, and it is There are specific policy initiatives of the current administration that are targeting nonprofits. We know this, right? The executive orders and now some specific, um, policy directions that don't look good. But the biggest impact, um, has been the clawback of federal dollars for the sector.

And, you know, historically, government funding has represented about, I don't know, I think it's thirty to thirty-three percent of all money flowing into the sector, right? And it's usually social service organizations, healthcare organizations, and education-focused organizations, and that get the [00:24:00] bulk of that government dollars, right?

But it's-- was still a big chunk of money flowing into the sector. And because of the clawback of a lot of federal dollars, it's had this ripple effect across other forms of, of money flowing into the sector. It's impacting philanthropy. And that's because organizations that have seen some cuts in government dollars are now going after more foundation grants and making more requests of their individual donors.

So there's this whole ripple effect. So it's not just organizations that were previously funded by the federal government. It's impacting the whole sector. And a lot of those federal funds flow w- well, they flow from, from the federal government to state and regional government, which then gets re-granted out to nonprofits.

So it's huge. And I think, um, last July, I did a training for [00:25:00] domestic and sexual violence, uh, leaders in, in the state of Oregon, and we did a, a informal poll in the room, and I think, um, most of them had already done a significant reduction in forces as of, you know, July of twenty twenty-five. That's the impact of means that organizations are having to lay people off, and they're having to eliminate some programs.

So there's, uh, been a big, um, contraction, and it's ongoing, right? There's gonna

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Deborah: be more organizations that just won't survive because philanthropy cannot do at scale what government funding does, especially for the social safety net providers. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's painful. That's, that's-- it's rough.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah, I, I do kind of sense this type of impact is almost across the board. I mean, some organizations, uh, get hit, uh, more than the [00:26:00] others. I think the general consensus is just the big environment is pretty tough right now.

Deborah: And very competitive. So this is where financial leadership comes into play, right? Because there's less margin for error, right? Organizations are working through their cash reserves. Philanthropic dollars are more competitive than ever. Like, it's, it-- the pressure on organizational leaders to sort of get that right is greater than ever, and as you pointed out, the need is also growing, right?

So, like, our communities are impacted by inflation and the rising cost of living and the affordable housing crisis, and when people are struggling, they turn to nonprofits for help with food, um, basic needs, right? And those are the same organizations that are experiencing the brunt of the government funding cuts.

Zhou Fang: okay. So So personally, I struggle with [00:27:00] competition quite a bit. I don't like to fight other people. I'd like to, like, share. I think you and I talked about it, uh, the abundance mindset. But I feel in current situation, perhaps it's not possible to avoid all competitions. Um, so I think for nonprofit leaders who are, like, right now just actively looking for funding, how, do they stand out?

I don't wanna say how do they compete with other organizations, because I feel there are so many deserving organizations. At the same time, if you are really in need of that finance, financial support or, um, funding from, uh, philanthropies or, um, foundations, et cetera, um, how, how do they stand out right now?

Deborah: That's a great question. I mean, I think that the best thing you can do from a strategy perspective is to, is to [00:28:00] do good work and tell a good story about that work, and to understand specifically what you're needing from the community, from, from individual donors and from foundation funders. But I also think since philanthropy cannot make up for-- they cannot backfill from philanthropic sources the loss of government funding, it's also imperative that nonprofit leaders think beyond organizational sustainability, because not every nonprofit is gonna make it in this current environment.

I believe this to be true. But that doesn't mean we can't work on sustaining our missions. So, you know, back to your point, Joe, about like being competitive and going after the same, um, funding sources as a lot of other organizations, I think the best approach is to go at this collaboratively. And if, if, if you can raise the money and keep your, your programs going, that's great, but also recognize that you're [00:29:00] part of an important ecosystem and that, that all of the services within that ecosystem need to be supported.

And there may be some opportunities around collaboration, um, strategic collaboration, maybe some shared back office support to get to some efficiencies, right? And if your organization is struggling with, you know, um, raising all the funds that you need, then it may be time to talk about an even deeper kind of collaboration, maybe even a merger, right?

Because the point at, at, at this juncture is not about saving all of the individual nonprofits, and there are like twenty thousand nonprofits incorporated in the state of Oregon alone. It's about Serving the mission and, and staying true to what the community needs. So sort of going back to full circle, the, the case study of aid services.

It's like, what is the community needing right now? And how do we

Zhou Fang: [00:30:00] Hmm.

Deborah: in the s- in the city working on the same issue. Maybe we need one nonprofit that's better at service coordination. You know? Like, this is an opportunity for us to sort of build things that work for everybody, but also build things that are efficient and effective so that we are less competitive in going after the resources that are available to us.

And I believe that there's a real opportunity for, um, private leaders to have important conversations along those lines.

Zhou Fang: I think that's brilliant, and I totally agree. I feel leaders, we really need to work together more and more, and especially for value-aligned organizations. If you are serving similar populations, if you have a similar mission statement or value system, it is a good idea to have a conversation with each other and see how can things be done that way. And I feel, you know, it's hard to avoid, like you mentioned, [00:31:00] letting people go. And when that has to happen, it's not a matter of, like, um, if that's gonna happen, right? It's, it-- we know that's gonna happen, um, but it is kind of up to us to handle that kind of situation. Like, knowing you are letting someone go, what we can do to ensure the person is, um, you know, kind of, like, on their way to the next adventure instead of feeling just, like, abandoned, for example. Um, and we always need to kind of help, uh, the people who leave us to be like, "Hey, these are the additional resource," and I can tap into my network, et cetera, et cetera, so that you can kind of move forward and, uh, land on the next, um, big thing, I think.

Deborah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the organizations that are, are doing this well are doing some pl- advanced [00:32:00] planning, like planning for different scenarios. If this funding stream goes away, where will we have to make cuts? Um, and letting people know in advance, like your funding for your program is at risk, and that's gonna At risk, but we wanna make sure that you land okay.

So we're letting you know now, even though we don't know the outcome, but totally understand if you start to look for a job elsewhere, right? And, and the organizations that I've worked with who do this really well have, have just planned in their-- not just planned for it, um, in terms of, of conversations with staff, but planned for it in terms of budget decisions so that they can set aside some money to offer some sort of severance package to give people a soft landing between jobs, right?

They're trying to take care of their people. But if you don't get out in front of this, if you wait for, like, y- you-- if you wait till money is out, you run out of money and you can't pay, then you can't actually do advanced planning, um, to, to make, [00:33:00] to make a good ending for everybody, right? And to make sure mission-based programs get transferred to partners that our values align.

So it takes a lot of, of advanced planning and difficult conversations, and a lot of organizational leaders are already stretched to capacity. It's like one more thing to

Zhou Fang: yeah.

Deborah: think about and to, uh, do to, to design a planning process for it, so it's challenging.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Um, so in your work with nonprofit leaders, like say specific last year and this year, what are the kind of like, um... Are people mostly looking for short-term solutions, or are people also looking for like, "Hey, I, I hope this, uh, we, we're gonna ride through this," right? "We're gonna have to ride this ride and, and figure it out.

We'll kind of hang on for as long as we can," for some organizations. And are people looking for [00:34:00] kind of like, after this crisis, current crisis, um, what are the options for people? Are people asking questions like that?

Deborah: That's a wonderful question. I think that we're just coming out of a period, like right after, um, the, the DOGE budget cuts, right? The sort of the first quarter of twenty twenty-five. I think after-- for, for the last-- for the first ten months of that, I would say people were like, "Okay, we have to do emergency fundraising.

We have to shore up the loss of these dollars." You know, they were looking more towards the short-term kinda solution you just mentioned. But those short-term solutions don't build sustainable, reliable, predictable funding streams in the long term. And so now I feel like organizations are becoming more strategic and instead of kicking the can down the road, kind of looking down like, "How do I make [00:35:00] sure, like, what we're doing today is sustainable," right?

There's

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm.

Deborah: a lot of,

Zhou Fang: Mm.

Deborah: interesting conversations about, you know, what is our core mission-based program? Like what, what do we need to keep? What are, what are mission essential? What are things that we can let go of? Maybe not forever, but for the time being until more resour- resources flow back into the sector.

So now I think organization-- organizational leaders are starting to have more of the longer term strategic conversation. But, but all of the different sub-sectors of the nonprofit sector are affected by this differently. Arts and culture organizations have a different finance model than social service organizations.

So they're deal-- they're-- the challenges are unique based on the finance model of your organization. But for those that did rely heavily on government funding, I think now they're, they're pivoting from trying to come up with short-term fixes or sort of [00:36:00] magical things that are somehow gonna shore up their funding to realizing, "Oh, we need to make some programmatic adjustments."

Or like I just had a client go through the dissolution process.

Zhou Fang: Okay.

Deborah: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: Um, I mean, it's definitely an interesting time for nonprofit leaders 'cause it feels like, um, it's like constant pivoting, right now. And I know a lot of people also experience burnout and just really worried about the future. So I, I think the fact that you are providing all these financial kind of leadership education is, um, critical, like really critical right now. And I also-- I'm curious, another, another thing I'm curious about is, I mean, you and I both sit at the policy committee meetings that Women's Foundation of Oregon hosts, um, pretty regularly, and I recall you are still on their board, right?

Deborah: Yes.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Um, [00:37:00] so I feel, um, a lot of your work since your Chicago years have shifted from kind of policy or advocacy to just on the ground, like in the field, uh, get your hands dirty kind of situation, working with nonprofit leaders. Are you still involved in policymaking these days or, like, advocate for, um, policy changes?

Deborah: Through the Women's Foundation, that's the sort of platform for me, um, for policy engagement and the, the policy priorities of the Women's Foundation align with my own. I, I care about, um, gender and racial justice, and those are the top policy priorities of the Women's Foundation. Um, what's interesting about being engaged in policy work through the Women's Foundation is as, as you know, there's that whole sort of research arm or research pillar of the Women's Foundation.

It's not just a grant maker. It's also, [00:38:00] um, you know, there's also a p- policy work, and then there's research work that the foundation engages in. And the policy priorities are-- stem directly from the research on the, on the status of women and girls in Oregon and these. And what's interesting about, um, the new theory of change at the Women's Foundation, which is focusing on rest, right?

And the need for rest is this idea that when you have-- when you are rested, you have more opportunities to dream, and that dream is also a data set, which I, I love this theory of change, right? Because if you're constantly busy, overwhelmed, and feeling like you can never get everything done and meet all of the, the expectations that the community has of you, then you're not gonna take time to rest and, and just reflect and to dream.

And we need dreamers right now because we are gonna be building things, and we [00:39:00] should be building things that work for everybody. And so to-- in order to do that, we need to dream. And then that dream is another data set that can inform policy. So for me, th- this, this platform and this framework is, is really, really helpful, and it's giving me hope too that we're maybe going to, you know, do something that's not just reacting to, uh, you know, the impact of the economy on women, girls, and families or the i-- you know what I mean?

Or violence against women. All of that stuff is coming from this place of having to constantly repair harm.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I totally agree. And, you know, I mean, part of the work I do, as you know, is the practice of the abundance mindset, and I feel, um, I- i- it's only when we can rest and dream, we will have the kind of head space and creativity or kind of feel we are [00:40:00] free enough to even, um, have the, uh, I don't know, I sometimes say have the audacity to dream, right?

It's like we need that audacity to dream. But if we are constantly, like you said, just patching things up and repairing things and trying to fix the unfixable, then we are so exhausted that we, we don't have the capacity to dream. So I totally agree. I feel for policymakers in Oregon and beyond, how can we create that space to dream, dream a different possibility?

Like, even about e- economy, right? Like, um, the, the work you do h- uh, helping nonprofit leaders, um, with a better maybe practice on finance. Like, can we, just thinking out loud, create a different economic system, right, for leaders to operate on, to thrive, to [00:41:00] not just constantly worry about where is money gonna be coming from? Or, like, can we practice, um, the solidarity economy in our community, in, uh, in this collective in Oregon, for example?

Deborah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think that the solidarity economy framework is, is just so interesting, and it's-- there's obviously natural alignment with the work that nonprofits are doing in terms of, of building community connection and systems of care and, um, you know, that sort of sense of belonging. Like that could-- That's also sort of the solidarity economy framework, right?

Like we're, we're, we're not just extracting things. We're like, you know, doing things that build, um, an ethos of care where everybody has what they need to, to And I feel like, you [00:42:00] know, staying true to that framework is, is a challenge if nonprofit leaders don't have an opportunity to sort of rest and to, to think about, um, you know, better ways of doing things, right?

And to think about how we can build better systems, right? That promotes the solidarity economy and not just, you know, feel like you're in a rat race to compete with other nonprofits to get the, the scarce resources that are allocated to us through public funding streams and philanthropy.

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. And, um, I feel the fact that, um, nonprofit leaders oftentimes they feel

Deborah: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: just so, um, I feel. Um, and that's very, as you know, is very scarcity [00:43:00] mindset-oriented, and that's not the leader's fault. I feel that, um, the system is designed this way. Like, it's asking us to fight for resources, to fight for each other, and we have to prove that we are deserving receiving party of these funds. Um, so

Deborah: Oh.

Zhou Fang: uh, you know, we don't have to fight so hard to get access to, uh, a chunk of money? And looking at the grand scheme of things, the money that most nonprofits for, right?

Or in their grants writing, in their request, they're not that much. Um, like, Like, a lot of people feel like, "Oh, we n- we, we cannot solve hunger. We cannot provide healthcare for everyone. We cannot provide childcare for every family." But if you look at the numbers, actually you're like, "Actually, we can." [00:44:00] Like,

Deborah: totally--

Zhou Fang: fighting?

Deborah: And if, and if people had thriving wage jobs and access to affordable housing,

Zhou Fang: Oh

Deborah: would need safety net services. I mean, the solidarity economy ultimately is not about, um, building more nonprofits. It's about eliminating the need for a lot of work that nonprofits do, right? To people who are fucked by the system.

Zhou Fang: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And I-- now that we're talking about it, I feel, mm, we, we talk about why are there so many people in needs right now. it's manufactured. it's created by the system. It's, it's m- literally manufactured. It's not because people don't work hard. It's not because people, know, don't want to, um, uh, have access to prosperity or resources. It's people [00:45:00] literally are stopped every step of the way by the system, and they literally just cannot get there. So the solidarity economy really is just to the-- to, to have the decency respecting basic human needs so

Deborah: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: you know, people can just have a life.

Deborah: Mm-hmm. And one of the interesting things I think that's, um, being piloted right now in different cities in different ways with, with different communities or subpopulations is the idea of a guaranteed income

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I love that. Yes.

Deborah: All of the money that's poured into homeless shelters and food pantries and, uh, uh, nonprofits that are all doing good work.

But if that was re- if those resources were, were reallocated to a guaranteed basic income for individuals and households, [00:46:00] what would that look like?

Zhou Fang: People can dream again.

Deborah: Mm-hmm. Well, and the-- if basic needs are being met, right, then you can focus on, you know, higher level needs. But you're all dependent on, you know, scrappy nonprofits, you know, that run food pantries, for instance, right? Like,

Zhou Fang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Deborah: if we, if we had a basic guaranteed income in this country,

Zhou Fang: It will

Deborah: it would, it would be a game changer.

And the idea that we, that just like we can't afford childcare is, is, is, uh, gaslighting, right? Be- just,

Zhou Fang: Absolutely.

Deborah: just as-- I mean, it's like it's all related to the wealthy continuing to grow their wealth while keeping a foot on the neck of everybody else, keeping us down, right? And so as much as I love nonprofits and I've worked in the nonprofit sector my whole life, the m- nonprofit [00:47:00] sectors are enabling that s- that system.

Zhou Fang: Yeah, as well. I mean, that's the things, like the system, there are so many parts in the system, they are working together and, um, I, I feel are, um, they're not serving the real per- they're not serving the, the people. And, um, I think you and I, maybe it was you and I, but in a recent conversation, uh, we had was that a lot of nonprofits, they start, um, not e- knowing exactly why they are doing this.

They kind of like, "Oh, let's do this." then they start a nonprofit, and then like, "Oh, I guess so and so is also doing this." Like, why are we doing this? You

Deborah: Yeah.

Zhou Fang: that's a conversation you and I had. Um...

Deborah: We did. There is a lot of duplication because I think that a lot of people who are do-gooders and they feel like they have a good idea, [00:48:00] they just wanna run with it. And I don't think that there's a real understanding that you actually have to have a business model. You have to figure out how you're gonna finance it, right?

And if there's already another group in your community doing that work, it makes more sense to align with them than to establish yet another nonprofit that we have to then have a governing board for and pay another executive level sa- you know what I mean? So I feel like The current environment, you know, with the contraction of government dollars for nonprofit work is, I think, going to help sort of weed away some of the duplication and it's just inefficiencies, right?

Zhou Fang: Yeah, that too. That too. I mean, we can just talk so much more about nonprofits in general. I feel we, we will definitely have another conversation. I mean, as the kind of the landscape continues to evolve, um, we're, we're now halfway through the year, and I'm sure a lot of, like, more [00:49:00] changes are coming our way in terms of, you know, financial situations for nonprofits and how leaders can continue to navigate the system. So, um, we should definitely have another conversation. Um, but as we, um, wrap up today's conversation, which I'm really grateful for, uh, thank you, Deborah, for coming on again. I'm curious, you know, if people want to, say, get education from you and your team and want to talk with you, um, about nonprofit strategy and financial leadership, uh, where do people find you?

Deborah: You can find me on my website, which is www.steinkopfstrategies.com. And then the Nonprofit Financial Leadership Academy website is www.npfla.com. You could also find me on LinkedIn. It's one of the social media platforms that I'm active on because the other ones are [00:50:00] such gutters. On LinkedIn, it would be a good place too.

Zhou Fang: Okay. is great. Yeah, we, we need you, I think, uh, in Oregon right now especially. So thank you very much, Deborah. We'll make sure to have your websites and your LinkedIn page in our, uh, notes as well. Um, so with that, um, have one more, um, question for you just to wrap up. You know, like, we're in such a incredible I think.

It's, uh, it's, it, it's a quite amazing time we're in right now. Um, as you advise and guide nonprofit leaders through the ups and downs, um, if you can offer them a sense of hope [00:51:00] during this time, what would you say?

Deborah: And this isn't just for nonprofit leaders. I think about this as a community member. I think about this as a mom and a grandma. Is that, you know, just because The harm is so great right now, and anything that you might do, um, to work against that feels small and not impactful, that it is impactful. Like we don't always see the outcomes of our work even in our lifetime, but that doesn't mean we don't work, right?

Whether that work is community care or, um, activism or policy advocacy, like it's, it's still important to fight for the right things and to show up. I tell this to my kids all the time too, and, and, and, you know, sometimes they're just overwhelmed. It's like, where do I show up? How do I show up? And it's like, I feel like every little bit [00:52:00] helps.

Even it feels, if it feels like a drop in the bucket, we still have to fill the bucket. And so, um, that's the work, right? You-- we, we're not working on all of these social justice issues because we expect to see these things in our lifetime. I never expected to see, um, gay marriage in my lifetime, and that happened.

We forget all the progress that we've made. And Elizabeth or, uh, Rebecca Solnit's most recent book, she, she kind of chronicles all of the progress that has been made in her lifetime, and we're about the same age, early sixties, in terms of the civil rights movement, um, and other movements, but especially the civil rights movement.

We can't forget all that has happened even in the last fifty years. But sometimes it is generational and you don't see it, but you do it for the people [00:53:00] that come after you. And for me as a parent and as, and, and a grandparent, like that's important to me. So I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep showing up. Even if it's anything that really happens as a result of those efforts happen after I die, that's fine.

I want-- I keep fighting for the people coming after me.

Zhou Fang: Mm. Yeah, I mean, that's so very well said, and, uh, I think it's a particularly important message for the younger generation, right? It's like feel kind of stuck, especially people in their 20s and 30s, et cetera. It's like, what am I gonna do? And, um, it's-- the very simple way is just to show up to a community.

Um, think about what is calling you. It can be something for the environment, it can be something for gender justice, it can be something for education, something for health. Whatever that pulls you, makes your heart [00:54:00] kind of like, "Oh, I wanna do that," right? It's like, "Oh, that's inspiring to me." Then maybe try it.

Start small. Maybe go volunteer. Um, put-- go to some community meeting. Go to some town hall, like you and I go to those meetings. Just participate and show up and see what is for you. And then if we keep doing that, like you said, Deborah, like it may seem small at the time, but it really is not. Um, it really has an impact that we may not feel yet or even see in our lifetime, um, but life is a continuum, right?

Like, it does continue even after us.

Deborah: I read this story about this man, um, who's been standing in front of the White-- I don't know if he's still doing this, but he was doing this for a while, standing in front of the White House every evening and lighting a candle. This was before the Iran war, so it was [00:55:00] in, you know, protest to all of the cuts, whatever.

And, um, someone interviewed him. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm paraphrasing, so I may not be getting this as elegantly as when I first heard about it. But someone said, "You know what, what change do you expect to accomplish here? You're just one person standing in front of the White House until your candle dies out every night."

And he said, "It's not so much that I expect to change anything, but I want this administration to know that it hasn't changed me." You know, that he is, like, standing his ground, his values, his beliefs, his worldview. And I just thought that was so elegant. Like, that was enough. You know, he didn't have to be standing out in front with a-- standing vigil with a candle.

That's what a candle is, right? In, in hopes that it was going to change some, some minds. But he wanted to make it clear that you haven't changed my mind. And that's a [00:56:00] resistance.

Zhou Fang: Mm. Mm. Yeah, that's so beautiful. Um, uh, it's so moving. I haven't heard that story. Thank you for sharing.

Deborah: Mm-hmm.

Zhou Fang: I mean, it shows up time and time again, I think, in hard times like this during-- especially during some, um, you know, social unrest moments, that peaceful demonstration, that peaceful presentation sometimes has a very, very bigger impact than certain noises that we hear over and over. And just a candle, right? Or sometimes... I remember a few years ago, I saw this image in a protest, this woman holding, I think, holding a rose in front of the officers. She isn't saying a single word. She's just th- she's just standing there. She's just holding a rose. And I don't know what happened there. I saw an image, and I don't really remember [00:57:00] the story. But I think that, that image has power. You know? Like, I'm quietly, um, sharing my thoughts with you, and I'm doing that peacefully. Um, so I think that is powerful. So thank you for sharing that. Um, so yeah, I-- with that, I think I'm finally ready to say um, we are going to conclude our interview today. But I'm so grateful that you came here, Deborah.

Deborah: I enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for having me, Joe.

Zhou Fang: Thank you so much. I'm gonna stop recording here.