"What Can I Do, vs. What Can We Build, Together?" with Nae Hakala, on White Culture as a Structure, Calling In (vs. Calling Out), Stars vs. Constellations, and Collectivism.

Nae Hakala: There we go. Looks like it's recording.
Zhou Fang: Yes, here we go. Gosh. Uh hello everyone. Welcome back to the intersection program. Uh we just spent 20 hours troubleshoot. Um well with my dear friend and guest Nay Hacka today and finally we are recording now. And welcome back, Nay, because you were just in Europe.
Nae Hakala: Thank you so much, Joe. Yes, I uh just got back from a week in Barcelona and then I was a week in Lisbon before that. Um, which was a just a beautiful trip with a lot of cultural experiences that were pretty life-changing for me. So, I I thoroughly enjoyed myself. It was a fun trip.
Zhou Fang: Wow. Oh, well, I mean, I want to hear more about this life-changing trip. Um but before that can you uh introduce yourself to us
Nae Hakala: Yes, I'd be happy to. So, you know, again, my name is Nay Hakala and um I use she her pronouns. Uh to give you a little I guess background on me professionally, um I am the new co-director of equity, diversity, and inclusion for Perma.


00:01:13

Nae Hakala: So, I am serving with Joe on that board. um and I'm very excited about that. I um am also an HR business partner and consultant with Zenium HR and I hold a master's in organizational psychology um and adult organizational learning and leadership. So I'm SHM SCP certified and then also I got some certifications in trauma-informed communication and abilities in the workplace. So have a pretty um diverse level of experience, but you can see it a lot of it's around just sort of um social sciences. So I've been practicing HR for about 12 years, but honestly I always like to say that I've really been doing HR my whole life. So I've been just really deeply curious about the ways people feel safe and valued and connected at work and just in their community at large. So, I identify personally as a queer, white, uh, and proud Portlander. Um, and I approach this conversation, you know, both as a learner and a strate strategist, you know. So, um, I believe transformation really begins with self-awareness. So today, I'm hoping that we can explore how understanding white culture, and I mean this not as a racial identity, but as a dominant cultural framework, can really help us build that empathy, accountability, and um resilience in in this especially divided political climate.


00:02:40

Zhou Fang: Wow, that might have been one of the best self introduction done by our guests. Did you even break? Did you take a breath at all? Is it just like one breath?
Nae Hakala: Oh, thank you. I I guess I get very excited and I have um I'm I'm one to use a lot of words and it's pretty funny because my clients will ask me immediately, wait, that you I love the way you said that. Can you say that again? And I'm absolutely not. I have no idea what I just said. I felt it.
Zhou Fang: Wow. Wow. You are built for this.
Nae Hakala: But don't ask me to repeat it.
Zhou Fang: Um, I really appreciate that very candid and very transparent and thorough uh, introduction. I think that sets a really good foundation for our conversation today. Um, and you mentioned, you know, you want to talk about um, white culture, which is why we are here today. And it's not a racial identity, but rather it's something that we need to be aware of, learn from, and you know, because it teaches us something.


00:03:47

Zhou Fang: Um, so I'm also excited to learn about that. And I do know, you know, your upbringing, I I remember you told me before that you had a very dear relationship with your grandmother and that largely also shaped who you are. And you mentioned you've been doing HR your entire life. So maybe we can talk about the relationships you have forged over the years um with different people and of course including your grandmother and how you see HR not just as a profession.
Nae Hakala: Yeah, thank you. I love that question. And you know, I have always been very close to my grandmother. She adopted me um and um her wife also adopted me. And so, uh, for many years of my, uh, youth, I grew up in a, a queer home in Orange County, California, which is an extremely conservative area. Um, so, um, in addition to that, you know, my home was definitely, um, uh, you know, my, uh, grandma's wife was a an educator, um, and she really believed strongly in um, you know, participating in the civil rights movement.


00:05:00

Nae Hakala: And so she was very active and passionate about that and just sort of brought those values into the home where um I sort of learned um ways of um influencing um the way that uh our government and um policies and structures work through um uh different means of um I guess education, knowledge and potentially action and resistance. So, um, you know, a lot of times, uh, in my life, I've sort of struggled with the conversation of race as a white person. I thought, you know, am I the person to be talking about this? am I the you know and so I really want to say that um you know when we're talking about white culture it's really not about um centering whiteness it's really about making it visible so that we can engage with it critically and um you know I never really grew up thinking I had a culture like white American culture was the absence of culture to me and a lot of times we just you know we call it norms, how we shaped, you know, how our world is shaped in America.


00:06:13

Nae Hakala: So, you know, we say things like professionalism or normal or safe or even respectful. And those norms when they go unnamed, they become invisible power structures and then they sort of quietly reinforce that inequity. So, my hope is that understanding um doesn't create guilt. Of course, I've been in that headsp space before, but it creates choice. And that choice is what can help create change. And you know, my understanding of the culture really comes from me being so embedded in it and learning, you know, that I do speak the language of the culture. And I myself have gone through so many difficult emotions and unlearning, you know, through my experience really working for the Portland Public School District. I learned so much. Um, and and I initially took a job as a recruiter uh for educators in the Portland area.
Zhou Fang: Come on.
Nae Hakala: And really I saw the mission for the job as um finding educators that reflected the demographics of the student population that they were serving. And um that could become difficult for me.


00:07:22

Nae Hakala: But I learned to speak from a space that I knew from instead of speaking for others. And I also um learn to identify my own culture so that I can see how um I might be open to learning other things. So I don't now see um white culture as maybe neutral. um you know, things like being on time or dressing a certain way or kind of communicating through that detached professionalism, they're all just sort of treated like universal expectations and they really are cultural preferences.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: So, you know, um recognizing these sort of cultural choices are not sort of moral absolutes and they help us better understand how systems favor some ways of being over others. And that really helps us see where we can contribute to the conversation, do the work, um without taking the lead necessarily, but understanding um our own internal biases, cultural norms, values, and expectations.
Zhou Fang: Wow, that is so powerful.
Nae Hakala: Wow.
Zhou Fang: I'm hearing my echo here. Uh, let me see if I can make the echo go away.


00:08:47

Nae Hakala: Yeah.
Zhou Fang: Like it went away. Okay.
Nae Hakala: Oh, good.
Zhou Fang: Uh, expectations. I can uh I can edit that out. That's fine. Um, that is really powerful and I suspect that a lot of us, well, I should say a lot of folks who identify as white and um, you know, light-skinned either are not aware of these cultural norms that are not neutral or avoid talking about it um because it doesn't because it doesn't impact them in a negative way.
Nae Hakala: Mhm.
Zhou Fang: So if it's working out for them, then you just let it ride. And I really appreciate you calling out professionalism. It's something, you know, I've think I've thought about a lot and talked about a lot. And I remember you and I had this exchange on like time like being on time is such a white culture thing, you know.
Nae Hakala: Mhm.
Zhou Fang: Uh any of course you know a lot of European countries uh follow the you know you need to be on time that kind of rule but of course not all European countries like say for example you were in Spain and Portugal I mean those countries may not follow that rule too strictly but if we talk about you know uh Germany for example uh they probably have a very different practice when it comes to time.


00:10:21

Nae Hakala: Mhm. Mhm.
Zhou Fang: Um, so I really appreciate you calling out professionalism and talk about, you know, dressing a certain way. And another thing I that you kind of reminded me is which I feel fortunate we live in Portland.
Nae Hakala: Mhm.
Zhou Fang: Um, for this particular thing is tattoo can be seen as so unprofessional. Uh, it's like people I was just talking about talking with someone about it this other this the other day. He was like, "I'm going down this route. I'm getting tattoos. I don't care if people see me as professional or not." I'm like, "It doesn't matter. Just do what you want. You know, you can be professional and having tattoos at the same time." So,
Nae Hakala: I love that. I agree. And I always say if anywhere you could probably do it in Portland, you know, and um that's one of the joys of of being more in a consulting role and finding businesses that really sort of align with with my values and see um you know um the importance of certain things over others.


00:11:40

Nae Hakala: And um I I've seen a real cultural shift in the past just few years even on people being very comfortable um showing tattoos or even I see um people coming to the workplace now with like nose rings and things like that which is um a big shift.
Zhou Fang: All
Nae Hakala: When I got out of college it was like you need to dress a certain way. There was a formula. It was very specific and this is how you're taken seriously and this is what professionalism looks like. and it was so centered in white culture.
Zhou Fang: right.
Nae Hakala: So there was um you know from even from college we talk about educational credentials. It's part of that um perfectionism and productivity that is so embedded in white cultural values. Um there's also that um piece of uh conflict avoidance or um politeness. So we really strongly believe in protecting comfort over truth.
Zhou Fang: Thank you.
Nae Hakala: And so I regularly engage in conversations with clients where we talk about the nice thing um versus the kind thing.


00:12:45

Nae Hakala: And there is a difference there. Um and when we can call that out and name it, it makes it easier to sort of make um compassionate and equitable decisions. Um, you know, another aspect of white culture that comes up a lot for me in human resources is that eitheror thinking, that very binary thinking. So, we very much value rationality over vulnerability. Um, if if anything, white tears are sort of weaponized emotional overtures regularly as opposed to um, and it's just really an expression of discomfort and I understand that place.
Zhou Fang: All
Nae Hakala: I've held back tears in conversations where I I felt exposed and vulnerable. Um but I do have this entitlement to comfort and um you see that even through our our um medical systems just expecting environments to accommodate white emotional safety.
Zhou Fang: right.
Nae Hakala: And so um that's something that's just sort of embedded in our white culture. Um, but we see things as um the value really being on intention versus impact. And so I see a lot of but I didn't mean it, so therefore it doesn't count.


00:13:58

Nae Hakala: Um, and so that's that to me really relates to individualism. And I think individualism is really the key sort of white cultural norm that I would love to discuss today because I do feel like it's so relevant to sort of what's going on politically and um where we can um sort of take action and grow in our learning and understanding.
Zhou Fang: Please do kind of unpack your thoughts on individualism as the center of a white cultural norm.
Nae Hakala: Sure.
Zhou Fang: Like why do you think that?
Nae Hakala: Absolutely. And I mean I think we could go back historically to just you know the founding of the nation and and what that looked like and it was just sort of like forge your own course um sort of thing. So I think it's one of the most defining and limiting aspects of white culture. So, um I remember I was first exposed to this idea through a workplace uh book club where we read this um Debbie Irving book called Waking Up White and Finding Myself in the Story of Race.


00:15:03

Nae Hakala: And that book just had this concept that I really clung to in my understanding of my racial identity. And they discuss stars versus constellations, right? And so white people often see themselves as stars and not part of this sort of system of we're all one identity as well, right? And so that leads to a lot of those conversations of like, but I'm one of the good ones. Well, that's not me though. And it's so funny because I'm I always have this response that's like, okay, so you don't want to be desperately impacted based on your racial identity. Um that's very interesting because that is the experience for a lot of other people and so it's um interesting to kind of shift that conversation back to oneself in that way.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: So, you know, that white independence, it it does have value and I understand it inspires accountability, but it also sort of isolates people from one another. Um, and their um uh emphasis on personal uh action versus and personal reflection over collective action leads to kind of this paralysis, right?


00:16:19

Nae Hakala: So, if I'm a star instead of a consolation, I go, well, what can I do? What does one vote matter?
Zhou Fang: It's right.
Nae Hakala: You know whereas if I say what can we build you know it's a very different conversation but I have to see myself as part of a whole as part of the human uh experience as part of those those bad acting white people are part of my race and I need to see that they are part of who I am in that way. Um, and so I can't other myself and I need to bring them into conversation as opposed to pulling away and differentiating myself. So we read a book Joe called um, White Women, remember that?
Zhou Fang: Mhm. Yeah, Okay.
Nae Hakala: And they talked about like that ego armor and keeping people um, uh, sort of in that like image management um, rather than sort of that movement building. So, it's more about like protecting my individual identity.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: Um, so it um it it's been um a really powerful thing to learn and read these texts where they're calling out what what does it look like?


00:17:35

Nae Hakala: What does it uh feel like? And how can it feel on the other end to receiving these um white cultural systems, especially in the workplace?
Zhou Fang: Mhm. Mhm.
Nae Hakala: So, you know, if we can somehow flip that um sort of like reframe that paradigm where instead of turning in, we're really good at this personal reflection. You know, I think that um it's a therapy culture. We love some personal reflection, but we do that in favor of outward connection. So I like the concept that it is actually in my best interest to see you and to see our community as a strength. So when we kind of look at it that way, it makes it easier to understand and to sort of it makes it more palatable. And that's what I mean by that um ability to kind of speak the language in a way that people can kind of grasp and relate to based on their own values.
Zhou Fang: I really really appreciate that. Um, I especially appreciate you illustrating individualism and collectivism using stars and constellations.


00:18:53

Zhou Fang: And I think that is, you know, talking about speak the language. We love talking about the stars and the universe and we use that in our pop culture. We use that in our spirituality etc. So I think that actually is a really great analogy for people to to reflect on like it's and it's not just about being independent or being like individualistic. It's about um you know to say not to use the either or language. It's about both. It's about yes we are independent individuals and we all belong to our community and one person's success is not the community success but if the community succeeds then everyone in it will benefit from it. Um so I really really appreciate that and I also want to mention you you you said it a few times um in different ways. One is to name it and then to call it out and to speak the language. It seems like being able to use the proper language to describe what we are going through, what we are experiencing is really critical um in your work in people and culture.


00:20:16

Zhou Fang: Can you share a little bit about uh your practice in using the proper language so that you know you are presenting things uh correctly or appropriately a better word maybe appropriately and to it's not to like you said it's not to guilt people but how can we teach people to learn about these things proper properly so that we can actually change our behaviors.
Nae Hakala: Mhm.
Zhou Fang: So I'm very curious about your practice in naming things.
Nae Hakala: I love that. I love that question because, you know, it's it's a triedand-true sort of statement that I've I've held dearly for years now. And it's it's um call them in instead of call them out.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: And to me, that is that is the practice here. And the I think that the appropriate language can sometimes be as specific as word choice. Um, but I do think more so it's about speaking from a perspective and it's um also about understanding that when we return to that uh white cultural value of perfectionism that this type of work, this racial equity and social justice work is is really driven by a learning a collective learning and changing which means it's a moving target and perfection is not something that can be achieved.


00:21:49

Nae Hakala: And I hear that frustration often from people that are like, "Well, I just can't say anything right, can I? I thought we were using this word and now we're not using it anymore." And I hear that and I understand that. And um I do think it's about being open to the learning and not taking personal offense by someone giving you the gift of letting you know that there is a a preferred way to state something or that you know I just think if if we want to help each other as a community and as a societ so society it's not about shaming people. You know, I've talked to enough people, white people, that were shamed once, and that just discouraged them from engaging in any such dialogue anymore because they felt embarrassed, they used the wrong word, and someone maybe didn't handle it as well. Um, but it's about instead of taking the interaction as, oh, this is discomfort, this is impoliteness, more so seeing it as this is a kindness. this person has taken the time to correct me, to show me a better way that can be more inclusive of people.


00:22:57

Nae Hakala: And so that's what I really try to think about. Um because we do get into the weeds even when I um am presenting on um you know uh respect in the workplace and harassment. You know, we talk a lot about well what words can I say? Do can I say this instead of that? and and it's I'm not the authority and neither is anyone in any specific, you know, group that you're referencing, but it's about um asking and being curious and being responsive. And I like to arm people with the um with the response of thanking someone instead of apologizing to them because I think that that can create a much um more harmonious uh sort of collective um when we're saying I actually use she her pronouns. Thank you so much. Yes, she her. Just moving on with the conversation that way is so much more comfortable and inviting than, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. What have I done? I've centered myself. I've made this about me now and how I'm sorry and how I'm embarrassed as opposed to thanking that person for the kindness of correcting me and making it easy to do so that they're willing to do it again.


00:24:10

Zhou Fang: Oh my god, that's so useful. It's so simple, too. It's just that that that switch. It's not about me. It's about the person who is teaching me and you know giving me a gift.
Nae Hakala: Right.
Zhou Fang: Um again that just illustrates the difference between uh individualistic uh life and versus you know there are people around us too like um it's not always about us. Uh thank you. And I feel that kind of tip alone if people really pay attention to that it can change our daily life drastically because even myself like I say I'm sorry all the time like I mean compared to 10 years ago maybe not as much but I still do say that even there was one time actually um oh gosh it's a slightly different scenario but we were hiking and uh you know share the road right like hikers, runners, bikers if there's like a mountain bike trail uh or track and this person is is a runner. So, they were running uh from behind us and and they got really close to us and then they just yelled at me and they said like, "Well, get away with something like that."


00:25:43

Zhou Fang: And I just got so startled that moment and I really quickly said, "I'm so sorry." And then immediately I'm like, "Wait a second. That wasn't my fault.
Nae Hakala: I hear that. Why are you sorry for literally existing on a path that another person is on as well?
Zhou Fang: Exactly. Exactly. And then I just immediately I was like, "s***, I did it again." And I was like, "I take that back. I I should not have said I'm sorry." And you're running, I'm walking, we're just sharing the path. Like, why did I just say sorry? So, yeah, I think that's such a good tip. Of course, it's a different uh kind of example, but it happened recently. It just reminded me to be like more mindful about the things we apologizing for.
Nae Hakala: Right. I think and I think it's a powerful metaphor, you know, um when I when I relate especially this topic of um white culture and specifically individualism to our current situation um I'm reminded of this metaphor and I think we've talked about this before but sort of um midcentury uh US civil rights movement in the south um when it um came to be that the public pools were intended to be integrated Um what a lot of uh


00:27:07

Nae Hakala: cities and neighborhoods did instead was to close those public pools to fill them with dirt and to make them parks. So to me I saw that those pools as a really powerful metaphor and um it shows kind of how whiteness when left unexamined will choose self-p protection over a shared humanity. So I I can put a pool in my backyard because I have a certain amount of me wealth and ability.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: Um so you know instead of finding a way to sort of swim with people instead we're going I am getting out of the pool and getting my own pool in my backyard. And that is that that individualism. Now, when I see um the really current events going on with um ICE raids in im immigrant communities, and let me know if this is too touchy of a subject to discuss here because you know, but um you
Zhou Fang: Go ahead.
Nae Hakala: know, this is um ongoing resistance to you know, racial equity efforts when the protester met with this state force, right?
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: So um many in the dominant culture were um framing the raids and events around law and order and really not around human impact.


00:28:25

Nae Hakala: Um and so it's again one of those times where we're faced with the choice between inclusion and comfort and our dominant culture right now will choose comfort even at the extraordinary cost of other humans.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: Um and so I see that happening right now. And um and I see our our nation responding to it and especially even here in Portland.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: You know, we had a really big demonstration last week. It was a national demonstration, but Portland certainly showed up in numbers here. And um that sort of um collective identity. You can feel that electricity when you're out with other people passionate about something um that matters so much to you and to your your life, your community, your family. Um it's a it's a very um empowering feeling that I hope that people get to experience in in whatever way they find manageable or reasonable. Um, but you know, we need we we could really use some shifting away from if we have to share it, we'd rather just end it because that's what I see I saw happening with the pools.


00:29:35

Nae Hakala: That's what I see happening with immigration policy, education, healthcare. Um, it's just that um we'd rather see something destroyed rather than transformed to include everyone. And that's that individual mindset.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, that is very powerful. And of course, you know, if we really think about it, it is scary. And um I don't like in my mind a lot of the um we call it political kind of uh divides right now from from my perspective I don't really see that as oh you are so right oh you are so wrong I am so right or someone's so wrong and someone else is so right.
Nae Hakala: Mhm.
Zhou Fang: It's not that for me. I think the fact that we are here today is because we largely ignored what is humanity like what does humanity really mean? Like talk about you know naming things and calling people in the fact that we are not we are we are almost like numbing ourselves so that we don't feel others pain to take out the empathy I think it's us collectively forcing ourselves to not think about humanity to not really feel for others at this point I feel if we say if you don't agree with me, you are the other side.


00:31:14

Zhou Fang: I feel that's at this point it's like it doesn't really mean anything at this point because because at the end of the day we're just running in circles.
Nae Hakala: Mhm.
Zhou Fang: We're not doing anything that's productive or good for the society or for each other even for ourselves. it's not helpful.
Nae Hakala: Yeah.
Zhou Fang: So I agree with you. I think largely ignoring the human impact is really to me that's the scary part and I really want to to use your word um to call people in you know instead of saying this is your ideology this is
Nae Hakala: Yeah.
Zhou Fang: my ideology how about let's all talk about our humanness this is our humanity um on the table here so thank you for
Nae Hakala: I love that. Yeah. And you know um you know what I hear I hear you referencing here is that that that sort of um emotional detachment versus that you know sort of collective interest, right?
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: And so um we see that in the workplace. It's about professionalism.


00:32:24

Nae Hakala: It's about um you know, it's taking a lot of the humanity out of work. And when we're dealing with human resources, we're dealing with humans. And so they come um with um complexities and um exceptions and mostly gray area. I always tell people if if you're in a very binary mindset of things are right or wrong, you know, good or bad, black or white, you will have a very hard time in this sort of career where everything
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: is sort of depends. I mean, that's the that's the um the the common sort of uh consultant answer to HR questions like that the answer is always well that depends.
Zhou Fang: Yes. I mean it's true, right? Like you said, it's a moving target. We have to continue to learn and unlearn. And you know, some people say, "Oh, I used to be able to say these words and I can't anymore." I mean it should be that way because we all it as a society as a species it should be that way pe things should not be just the same all the time it should evolve um so yeah I just resonate so much with uh what you've been saying today nay


00:33:44

Nae Hakala: And you know, I would say there there is an other sort of side of the spectrum here where we have a lot of people doing a lot of hard work, right? Um, white people doing a lot of hard work to learn and understand. Um, and I think sometimes we can find ourselves um with with some negative impact because we're attempting to do what we see as the right thing. And again, that reflection on your own culture can help you see that. So, I could see a person coming from a position of um, you know, privilege and influence saying, "Well, I should lead this because I have the means or the experience or the ability or what have you."
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: And um and and that's why I kind of want to go back to the the at the beginning where we talked about sort of centering that whiteness and how people can show up is through literally showing up and listening and not defaulting to that leadership role that a lot of us want to take, especially if we're passionate about the topic and we want to do better and we learned so much and we just want to share


00:34:39

Zhou Fang: Okay.
Nae Hakala: with people and get them as excited as we are in in the work that we're doing. Um, but it's just that moment to reflect on our own culture and say like, "Hey, I I don't I don't need to center myself here. Maybe it's time to listen and learn instead of being worried about uh already having the answers.
Zhou Fang: Yeah, I love that. I mean the a sense of humility, right, and curiosity. Um, so we we are getting close to the end of our conversation, but I do not want to end without talking about your life-changing trip.
Nae Hakala: go.
Zhou Fang: Um, you mentioned life change and another thing is in order to really kind of like put cultures into perspective is to actually see cultures.
Nae Hakala: He
Zhou Fang: And I know not everyone is at a place to travel. So I see that as a privilege and a blessing. So, as someone who is able to travel and experience cultures and learn from it, talk about your lifechanging experience in Barcelona and Lisbon
Nae Hakala: Absolutely.


00:35:59

Nae Hakala: Well, you know, the interesting thing is I I wasn't sure what to expect. Just as you mentioned, it's a European culture. Um, and I did my best to learn what I could. I did a lot of history research because of course I had to go see all the castles and things like that and learn a lot about the history and the artists and the architecture and um but really I think the value in travel is um just exp for me experiencing being the other because I am very much a part like I am Mrs. Portland, Oregon. You know what I mean? Like I am right where I need to be. These are my people. I feel so comfortable. I can just be myself.
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: And then I go somewhere else and and things are a bit different. Um I noticed small things like um in especially in uh Spain in Barcelona um people are not very overly friendly. So like in American culture, customer service is is often about a smile and a sort of almost like a saccharine um politeness that is just sort of expected and embedded in our our our regular interactions.


00:37:06

Nae Hakala: And in Barcelona, it was like, they'll just tell you exactly what you need to know. And it seemed very direct. And I I found myself having to hold back from being taken taken offense to some of the ways that people came back. Well, like, well, maybe if you had done it this way. And I'm like, whoa, okay. Um, we would, you know, that's not a common thing you would hear in in sort of a customer service interaction in the US is what you did wrong, right?
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: The customer is always right. But there they were very much like, no, learn and do better next time. and and I I just again had to find myself thanking them for the learning opportunity, you know, and and similarly timing there, you know, if you are a very on time, very uh you know, type a person, which I certainly can be, especially with regard to work, um to be be able to kind of let go of the plan and understand that everything is going to take significantly longer than you thought it um you know, dinner's going to be 3 hours, you know, like you're not going to get seated right away.


00:38:11

Nae Hakala: It doesn't matter if you have a reservation. So, um people even walk slower, you know, it's just like a more easy culture um uh in that Aberian sort of region. So, um I also think being in Lisbon um and you you know, Spain less so because although they they spoke a lot of Catalin, there was also a lot of Spanish. And so I found myself able to get around. Well, the interesting thing about Lisbon is of course they speak Portuguese and um it's just so dangerously close to Spanish that you're inclined to respond in a language you know.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.
Nae Hakala: And um I learned quickly that it it's um it's it's more offensive um or it can be taken as more offensive to speak Spanish to someone speaking Portuguese rather than just speak English. So your your attempt at Spanish to sort of relate or whatever, they don't want it.
Zhou Fang: Oh no.
Nae Hakala: They all speak English. They go to school and learn English and Portuguese growing up. And in Barcelona, they also learn they learn Spanish, English, and Catalyn.


00:39:14

Nae Hakala: So um they're very equipped to to handle um the English, you know, interactions. That said, the effort that I did put in to just learning some simple phrases of how to say thank you, how to ask politely for things, um those uh respectful things, I I noticed a difference in my interactions with um with people all over the cities, um versus maybe some other travelers who, you know, refused to sort of engage with the culture and were very like, let's shape this environment around my expectations and where I'm coming from. Whereas my my sort of travel is very immersive. It's like let me stay in a smaller um neighborhood where it's more of the feel of the culture and you're you're walking to the market and you're um you you've got the local coffee shops and bakeries and um it it's a very different experience than um sticking strictly to the more tourist attractions which were also plenty of fun. But I I enjoyed the balance for sure. Um, and when I found myself in those moments of uh, for example, the Cigar Familia is just just a destination, right?


00:40:27

Nae Hakala: It's one of the most incredible buildings ever. Um, but being around that and seeing um, just the um uh the uh the the assumed privilege in a lot of uh, tourists interactions with others.
Zhou Fang: What?
Nae Hakala: Just just the rudeness, the impatience, the this line's taking forever. you can just spot them. You can just see where people are coming from, whereas others are like, "Well, we're here. That's what we're doing right now, you know." Um, so you can actually kind of see how a lot of different cultures come together in such a big city like that. Um, and how um, responses are just a lot different. And at the end of the day with anywhere I've visited, it's just experiencing being outside of the cultural norm, navigating that, having some compassion for that experience, and bringing it back here and seeing how I um my eyes might have been opened or that I can relate a little bit more with someone. you know, when I've had those struggle conversations where I'm trying to just ask about the check or something like that, I think to how many people are doing that now in the US where there isn't even an official language, you know?


00:41:39

Nae Hakala: So, um it just gave me a lot of um perspective and understanding that I wasn't expecting to get from frankly pretty white European uh destinations.
Zhou Fang: right? interesting. I mean in a way it makes us appreciate more of the slowness in life which of course is not very air quoting professional you know it's like
Nae Hakala: It's true. People show up when they show up at times or a suggestion, you know, all of that. It's so true. But it's also, yeah, nobody's in a hurry. In my experience, they just everything was kind of easygoing and like we'll get to it and things. It wasn't an emphasis on productivity and these are the five things we need done tonight. It was more just like we're literally here to have fun, so let's see what happens.
Zhou Fang: I love that. Um, I think this is a really nice place to wrap up our chat, which really leaves it open for folks to think about, you know, the influence of culture and different cultures without centering certain one culture and how enriching that can be for our life.


00:42:47

Zhou Fang: And I also want to mention, you know, uh Nay actually isn't feeling super well today and um you still came and gave us such a great interview. I'm so appreciative um of you. So, thank you so much. And uh I want to ask finally um if people want to get in touch with you, how do they find you?
Nae Hakala: Oh, well, uh, they can certainly find me on LinkedIn, um, either through the Portland Human Resources Management Association, uh, links or, um, through Zenium HR. Um, and I would love to connect uh with people on LinkedIn and also find me at the Perma events. I absolutely love our um local Sherm chapter here in Portland and um I am a bit biased as I mentioned Jean and I are both on the the board there, but um we are because we believe in it and we're volunteer leaders in that uh in that sense. So, um come out, connect with your community, connect with other professionals that are working and learning alongside you and um those and please include me in that because if you hit me up on LinkedIn, I will save you a seat at my table anytime.


00:43:59

Zhou Fang: Oh, that is wonderful. Yes. Let's all have a seat for each other at the table. Uh, and with that, uh, thank you, Nay. I'll see you soon in person.
Nae Hakala: Thank you so much. Good to see you.
Zhou Fang: Good to see you. I will stop here. Stop recording. Stop recording this meeting. Be saved in organizers Google Drive. All right, I guess we did it.
Nae Hakala: Hey, heat.
Zhou Fang: Wow, that was really cool. I think it was I mean the first one was really awesome and I think this one was just like a upgrade even. Um because you went I mean I I really you should be a speaker like like Actually, actually it
Nae Hakala: I would love to. That's honestly I would love to do that and I feel like you know if this is something that we can work into presenting to the board even just for our internal learning like when we kind of get together to create our content for you know December or January or whatever.


00:45:07

Zhou Fang: is definitely.
Nae Hakala: Um I think it would be really a wonderful thing to to sort of incorporate in whatever we decide. But yeah I love I love speaking on it.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.
Nae Hakala: I think it's um I've found my niche like this is the place where I can be useful and effective um and continue to learn for myself. It's completely self-interest as well, you know.
Zhou Fang: I actually do think um I never know if you have to go now um for because scorecast didn't work out. We used Google Meet. It means we have both audio and video. If you are open to it, I would just say hey board members pretty w please watch this. This is part of our teaching and we can say before our December transition which is where we going to teach. So that's that's why I wanted to touch base with you is because we're going to teach a white culture and not to center it like everything you talked about today at the board transition day and we can set these as their prehomework.


00:46:19

Zhou Fang: Go watch this and listen to this uh audio file whatever and this is your pre-work and come prepared.
Nae Hakala: I I love it. I think um I'm especially uh open to sending the audio to people. I love that the video just because I'm sick. I don't know if I'm looking my best, but but you know um and I don't know if I already spoke to you about this, but one thing I really wanted to do is um uh I don't know.
Zhou Fang: Oh yeah. And let's just do audio.
Nae Hakala: Oh, I must have spoken to you about it. I want to come up with just sort of speaking of homework. I I do and I spoke to Nikki about this a little bit. I want to make sure that everybody that we have come and educate and speak for perma and to whether it's a SIG leader or a guest speaker at symposiums or what have you to have some framework going into that because there have just been times where we've really missed or some, you know, things have been stated where I'm cringing from the audience going, "Oh gosh, we probably should have vetted this person a little bit more or


00:47:11

Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: offered some sort of additional education.
Zhou Fang: I see. Yeah.
Nae Hakala: So my thought is if we could come up with just some sort of agreement or list of resources or here's what we ask that you watch or read before presenting to our group so that you have a better
Zhou Fang: Mhm.
Nae Hakala: understanding of where we're coming from with respect to inclusion.
Zhou Fang: I love them.
Nae Hakala: And so that would be like a big initiative for me this year in getting off the ground.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.
Nae Hakala: And I think you and I could work together on something really great for that. And so it's not, you know, it I don't know if it's overstepping because it's not it's not simply, you know, just a DEI program, but it's like as I understand that our our responsibilities in this EDI space is to help improve all um all uh touch points and aspects of um the way that perma interacts with the community.
Zhou Fang: I don't think it's overstepping at all. I think it's really actually needed um you know for us to have this is a great kind of first step you know like to do some education at the transition ask people to listen to this audio conversation which is really cool.


00:48:26

Zhou Fang: Um, so basically we are repurposing our conversation and I'll send the audio file to you as well and then we can build a framework that's not centering white culture but everyone should learn about it and so that we can actually you know like you said do something about it.
Nae Hakala: Yeah. Yeah. Name it, call it out, and then and yeah, that just can make such a big difference. I love that. I think it's a great idea.
Zhou Fang: Okay. Yeah, we can we can work on the framework for sure. I think it's only going to be great and I mean who knows when you are ready to be your you know independent consultant you you already will have a framework right
Nae Hakala: I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I do I hope I can continue to develop this into some uh educational sort of um presentation um or you know uh talk that I can um continue to build on because it's um it's a it's a really fun and um rewarding topic for me.


00:49:27

Zhou Fang: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, yeah, I agree. It's good for you. It's good for me. So educational and um I'm just I'm very grateful that you came came on again.
Nae Hakala: Oh, I'm happy to do it. And and you know, I would do it again, too. So, if we if we come up with another fun thing, I would love to come back and Yeah.
Zhou Fang: Sure. Yeah, we can do that sometime next year. Yeah. Uh, cool. I shouldn't uh take too much of your time. I know you're not feeling well. So, I hope you, you know, get a cup of tea and warm up a little bit.
Nae Hakala: Thank you.
Zhou Fang: And um I So, maybe I'll see you next week at the membership appreciation.
Nae Hakala: Yes. On I think it's on Wednesday. I absolutely plan on attending. So, yeah.
Zhou Fang: Okay. Yeah, that's going to be Wednesday.
Nae Hakala: Yeah.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.


00:50:15

Nae Hakala: Yeah. That's gonna be fun. Oh, we're gonna bowl.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.
Nae Hakala: Yeah, we're going bowling.
Zhou Fang: Wait, what? I don't know if I can do that, but okay. I suck at it. I'm so bad.
Nae Hakala: But they have like um bumpers you can get, you know. Have you ever done it with the bumpers? They basically fill in the gutters so it's like you can't lose. They put these like kind of like pillow pads in the gutters and so your ball just bonks off of them and keeps going and so you'll hit something.
Zhou Fang: Okay, that's what I need. Yes.
Nae Hakala: Yeah, it's fun. Makes you feel like a real hero.
Zhou Fang: Okay. Yes. Okay. Uh well um I hope you feel better real soon and um yeah.
Nae Hakala: Thank you. Thanks so much for inviting me on here. This was a a really special thing. So, I appreciate you.
Zhou Fang: Do you have everything you need like tea or soup, things like that?
Nae Hakala: Yeah, honestly, it's just it's a waiting game. Like, it's just a Yeah, thank you so much for asking, but I mean, I just keep drinking my liquids and my kombucha and just you just got to wait it out sometimes, you know? But it's just been a spell of bad luck like with my back injury and then I you know I was away and now I'm sick.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.
Nae Hakala: I just feel like I've been out of commission for it feels like two months. So um I look for I bet by next week I'll be doing a lot better.
Zhou Fang: Yeah.
Nae Hakala: So I really look forward to that.
Zhou Fang: Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll see you soon then.
Nae Hakala: Okay.
Zhou Fang: And um yeah, we have a lot more to talk about for sure.
Nae Hakala: Yes. We'll talk on Monday, right? Don't we have something scheduled? Perfect.