Life Is An Unfolding Journey", with Julie Gefroh, on The Golden Threads of Life, Inter-dependence, Acceptance and Compassion, and Dreaming.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: All right. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Intersection, a podcast program about intersectionality and the stories that come with it. And as we know every story behind every story, that is a real person. Um, and I'm excited to talk with my guest today. She has a wonderful story. Um. Fantastic background in coaching and leadership development.

Her name is Julie Gafro and she's the founder and the lead consultant at Golden Thread, uh, coaching. And I was very fascinated by the name. And, uh, I almost feel that's how we started talking, but we actually met through a mutual friend. Um. And I would love to invite Julie to [00:01:00] introduce yourself in your own words.

Welcome, Julie.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Thanks, Joe. It's really so nice to be here talking with you. we've had a few conversations and I've just enjoyed them so much. We started talking about right away when we met we, we went on a detour into talking about the swifts and the bird migration and

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So I'm really looking forward to our chat.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Me too. Um, yeah, tell us about, um, how you stepped into coaching and the origin story of Golden Thread.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I'd be happy to. Thank you. Yeah, and, and it, the story of Golden Thread is really connected to how I stepped

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: coaching. Um, so yeah, I'll probably start there. Um, so, well, and actually maybe, you know, most of my career was spent in, um. International business operations. I worked in the outdoor [00:02:00] industry, the bike industry my way into the tech world. Um, and in the tech world, you know, I, um, was working for a software company in 2020, so these are like early COVI days, they rolled out a coaching program. So at that moment I was managing a, a team, um, customer success team, and I became a coach

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: the company was fantastic. They provided, um, really great training.

They brought us to like International Coaching Federation, you know, um, associate level standards. They amazing training,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: they gave us a learning allowance. And that allowed me to go out and deepen, um, my, my learning now that I was, um, doing coaching as well. And the first coaching school that I started studying with, [00:03:00] really drew me to them, they had this, this idea that we, um, we grow like rings on a tree. That just landed with me, and I'll tell you why. Because what would happen is I would find myself like, am I here again? You know, like I, you know, I, I come to a challenge in life and I'd work through it and I would, I would grow and develop in some way, but then a few years later, like I'd find myself back. And, and it, I get a little frustrated, like, gosh, I already thought I kind of worked through this, but this tree on a, you know, the tree rings metaphor made me feel like, oh, I'm not exactly in the, I'm not, I'm not in the exact same place I was. I've grown, I've expanded, I've grown a little bit.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And so I, I studied with that, [00:04:00] that school for a few years. Then I really, then I really discovered what I wanted to learn in coaching, and I found another school called Athia. This is the coaching school I've been with for the past, past four years. And first week of, of that coaching school, level one, session one. Somewhere in the materials it says something about, um, if you find yourself like in a repeating pattern. You may be in a golden thread, a pa you know, a pattern that's maybe been repeating for you since childhood. And that was like a, a lightning bolt of some sort because I really realized like, oh, golden threads is my golden thread.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So. This is where maybe I'll turn like a little bit more [00:05:00] personal in my story.

You know what really Drew, drew me to that, um, when I was a child growing up, probably from age four to 14, dancing was my life. Like I was a dancer. I, if you would've asked me as a 12-year-old, like, I'm moving to New York, I'm gonna be a, a professional dancer. Like that was, that was my life.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: my mom was, she was, my mom is very talented, very creative, very artistic. She sewed all of our, uh, dance costumes

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: started to sew dance costumes for other people in the studio. And eventually she started her own business called Golden Threats.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Wow.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: She had a partner and um, they made dance [00:06:00] team drum and bugle core flag team costumes for schools all throughout the state of Oregon. And that really, it took her away basically like she, it became all. Kind of all consuming and encompassing

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: which

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I was very, very, very proud of her and it was a fantastic, uh, growth and development for her.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: What happened for me in that I think was like, okay, well, I guess I'm on my own now. Like, it, it kind of propelled me to, um, figure things out on my own. And it doesn't mean that I was on my own. Like my mom was still very available, um, to me and my dad stepped up in a lot of ways, but it created some kind of like, part of me that's just like, well, you know, self-sufficiency, self-reliant, [00:07:00] it's, it's just me. And this really followed me through, I would say like. my career even. it ca it, it served me in so many ways. Like I really, I really went out and, you know, uh, I made my way in the world and I

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: my way into leadership roles,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: kind of carried with me this, this sense of I've gotta do it on my own, like

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and it's so, so common I think in this kind of individ, individ, individualistic culture that we live in.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. So, you know, originally I thought, well, my coaching business, you know, I knew once I started coaching that this is what I wanted to do. and I thought for sure it would be nature centric and around tree rings. But it became so clear to me through this golden thread image through my own story [00:08:00] that. Following a thread, what, what it really invites you into, I think is a sense of depth

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that you, whatever is surfacing, like there's something here. For me, it was like this sense of independence or maybe not being able to ask for help or, you know, tackling problems on my own instead of out for, uh, uh, a

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Okay.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: uh,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: That there was something to follow there. And through that. That deepening process, then I would discover the capacity of, um, you know, being more interconnected and I can't do it on my own. need, we need each other.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, that's such a beautiful story. Um, I guess you did mention before when we talked, um, that your mom made all your dance costumes and now I recall it makes [00:09:00] so much sense. Um, and the fact that, you know, we all have these invisible thread that we can follow and trace back to. Um, I think that's like a really cool, at least a image, I feel.

It's, it's highly like you can visualize it and it's also like a really cool metaphor.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Thank you. And, and there's something about the, the gold too. I think that reveals, like there's something really. Precious and resourceful. You know,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: like you say, these invisible threads, these things that you know, might not be apparent, um,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you're

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: with someone,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: they're there and when you follow them, like it does land you into, uh, some kind of gold.

Like there's something really good at the core of whatever that, you know, surfacing issue might be.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. There has to [00:10:00] be like deep down there has to be a reason behind it.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: That's

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: it.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Um, you mentioned your practice is very. Nature centered or nature centric? Um, can you tell us more about kind of like your, um, relying on nature to give you guidance in your leadership and coaching work?

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, definitely. And, and that's another thread I would say for myself. Um, you know, growing up nature was a huge part of, um. My childhood. Like we, you know, I didn't get on a plane till I was 17. You know, we, we

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: camped in, in Mount Hood, we went to the Oregon coast. Um, my mom also ran a, um, a day camp, uh, a Nature Day camp.

So nature's been a [00:11:00] thread, uh, for me throughout my life. Um, and I love to. Use turn to nature as a teacher. Um, and you know, I think maybe what might be helpful before I turn to that is. You know, nature really unfold, you know, nature unfolds, you

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: a, a new leaf arrives on a tree, it's not an upgrade.

It's not like, um. achievement. It's just life and we tend to look at ourselves and our lives as you know, sometimes like a project of some

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Okay. Yes.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you know, I have to have everything figured out, you know, now. And instead of [00:12:00] looking at our lives like unfolding journey.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Um

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And we tend to look, you know, I think because we live in this, um, the world, the world that we live in, tend to view our lives like, um, like

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: machines of some sort.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yes.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: yeah. And know, we're, we're not machines, you know, we are, we are. Living systems and they're

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Um, and so nature, I think, you know, if, if we're looking at this idea of unfoldment nature is, is the, the prime example of that.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: another way I could even weave this in, as you know, looking at the forest, for

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: like a forest is a perfect example [00:13:00] interdependence.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: You know, and you just, like you said, the invisible threads, you can't

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: what's happening underground, but you know that there is a whole world there and there's shared support there.

There's mutuality,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: so really models, I think, what a life could be, but we have to slow down enough to, to actually, take it in and to remember.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I totally agree. I mean, we talked about the magic of the Redwoods and just in general, you know, when we say take a nature walk, when we even just Forest Park in Portland. Um, you can feel kind of the, the ease and the peace that nature can provide us. And it's not because, you know, the forest is just [00:14:00] there.

Yes. The forest is just there. It's all, it always will be there, but it's because I think my interpretation is the forest holds us. It's like. You know, it provides a safety, it's like a protector, and it cannot be a safety provider without itself being connected to each other,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: like the creators, the animals, the plants.

Um, they have to be dependent on each other to be able to provide that safety net for us visitors.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: That's so beautiful. Yeah. And, and even as you're just like saying like you, for, you know, your listeners, you kind of closed your eyes a bit and it felt like you were feeling what it's like to be. You

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Park, it's here in the city

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.[00:15:00]

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and it's just this like little refuge that we have

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: our city to go

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: remember and feel

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Like everything just seems to slow down

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you go for a walk in nature, especially if you're like, your intention is like, I'm gonna just go out and experience the beauty of nature

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and. We, then we come back and it's like, we, we experience that and then it's like we forget, you know, we come back, we sign on, we

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: of our work, and we just simply forget. So very often I feel like, you know, the way that, that I like to approach, um, coaching and this unfoldment, it's, it's a practice of remembering because

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: like we know this, you know, it's.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Or, or we knew it at one point. Um, but we get very caught [00:16:00] up in, um, know, I would call habit of fixing ourselves, improving ourselves, know, it's like, or bettering ourselves or something.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that, that, that remembering of the interconnection.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: The ease, the safety. You said something else about that trust, like

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: just, we just forget.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: That's so true. I feel, you know, oftentimes it's not a matter of not knowing, but it is a matter of not remembering, and that's why we need to be reminded, like what it is like to be a child, what it is like. To be, I don't know, climbing a tree or what is like to see and [00:17:00] smell the ocean, you know? What does that remind you?

And like you said, we need to remember those and that's why memories are so important. And um, and I, you know, I feel we discussed it briefly earlier, is. Right now, in this time in our lives, we need to remember what we already knew.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yes. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So much so. I mean, I think that that part of this remembering. Is slowing down. Like, you know, what, what does it, what does that mean? You know, well, we need to slow down enough to remember, we need to have this, the, the space to do so. Like, I think so often we're, and, and it's. It's almost a requirement [00:18:00] these days for like keeping up with our work and our lives, and I just fully recognize that, that our lives are extremely full.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: uh, what's actually needed to navigate the complexity of right now

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that that slowing down to remember. Um, and in that process, um, remember. Like what I'm gonna call like our inherent, um, resourcefulness our, our capacities. and you know, I, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but, um, I've looked through your website. It seems like part of your message is remembering, you know, our enoughness.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yes, definitely.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And I. Agree a hundred percent. and so often, at least what I see in my work is that, [00:19:00] um, we forget our, our enoughness, our

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and we are part of this busyness. I think this epidemic of busyness that we are so hooked into

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that we are forgetting our inherent. Enoughness and worth and value, we are so busy seeking it externally, and whether that looks like achievement or approval and or validation or you know, whatever it is, sometimes it works and sometimes it, it doesn't or it doesn't last.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: It doesn't last.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. And so that, that thread following of the thread means that. We're looking for it internally, and enoughness is remembered again. Like

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: again why I love, I love the nature metaphors because [00:20:00] when you look, um, I, this I've, I, I've written about it, it's probably very overused, but there's the metaphor of the acorn and the oak tree,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Okay.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and so. don't judge an acorn for just being a tiny little acorn. we don't criticize it. We know that the, the acorn contains the, the potential to be this majestic tree.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Yep. I mean, the good, good things take time.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Take time. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, I really appreciate that. I think it's really, um, it is hard [00:21:00] now and it's also really important to remember that the steadiness, the slowing down and the enoughness like you mentioned, as well as our collectively, we are very resourceful and we just forget. About that unique quality we have, you know, as a species, together we can accomplish a lot of things.

Not, not like making money or, you know, conquer each other or whatever. That's what, that's not what I meant. What I meant is, you know, collectively we can accomplish like. Everyone can have a home, right? Everyone can have food on the table. Everyone can have access to healthcare. You know, those are very, to me, probably more important than a lot of the things that we go after.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Absolutely [00:22:00] right. And you're, you're so, um, spot on that like, collectively, we are so resourced each of us has, I think, a unique, um, capacity or unique skill or gift, um, that, that we can contribute. And when we, when we. When we approach that from this place of like our enoughness and our inherent, um, worth and dignity, I think what what happens is we get to make decisions on how we spend this precious life that we have and our precious limited, you know, and resources.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: it's like the ground, like from what ground are we viewing these problems from what ground are we viewing our contribu, uh, our contribution to these problems? [00:23:00] Collectively, right? Like we can't do it alone. And if we, and if we only view it from that, that would be a very partial view, I think to the, the, the challenges that we face right now at this

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: at that partial view. It's very overwhelming. Um, but when we understand at our depth It's kind of a, a fallacy that we're gonna do this alone. Like that's, yeah. Who,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: It's not gonna work.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you. Right. Exactly.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. You mentioned, you know, we have to remember. What we already know and from what ground are we viewing the problems and the way we contribute to the problems. Um, so I would like to invite you, perhaps expand on it a little bit, talking about some, um, perceptual [00:24:00] shift you mentioned earlier that is needed.

Um, can you tell us more about this shift you are referring to?

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Well, it, it's, it's a bit of what I just said, like that partial view, like viewing the world, um, from. A partial view, is very limiting. And what I would invite you into is this, this, this holistic view.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So, and it, and touched on it a little bit, but, um, if we, if we start the question with like, something is. Something, there's a problem, you know, and there are problems that need to be fixed, but

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: view ourselves as a problem that needs to be fixed, um, we're approaching the world from this like, sense of deficiency. You know? Like, there's something wrong [00:25:00] here, there's something missing. There's something that needs to be improved. So yes, there are problems in the world, but, but I'm inviting us into a different, uh. View and relationship with ourselves. so instead of that view, what if we take the view of, as we said, with nature, like the the acorn,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: we take the view that, that nothing is missing? I,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

I love that.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and it doesn't mean that there's not a new skill for us to learn or there's not, uh. You know, there, there's plenty for us, um, to learn. But you know, again, like we are not machines. We are, you know, it ultimately, it seems like what it is to be human. Maybe that's, this like

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Uh, yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: shift here.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I love that. [00:26:00] Um, I think, oh gosh, yeah. I think this is really great. Like it really goes back to we are humans, right? And humanity, I think. You know, talking about language is that when we mention the word humanity, oftentimes people go about the positive sides of humanity. Humanity is, it doesn't take sides.

There are dark sides of humanity too. So to be human is to acknowledge there are bright and dark sides of humanity. And it is up to us to make that choice like every single of us have a choice to make. And what is the choice we're making [00:27:00] today? And yeah, I don't know. Like I'm sure if we go around and ask people what it is to be human, people will have different responses.

I feel the majority are probably just like, oh, I just want to live a normal life.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: live a normal life. Exactly. Exactly.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Nothing grand, you know?

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, yeah. I do. I I completely agree and I'm glad that you up like there is, like, there is light and dark in, in every one of us. That's true. Um, I think it's important, like at least for my own practice, it's been when I see something that that is, feels ho horrifying

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: it's like in some small way.

Like I can often see like, how might that be true in the most [00:28:00] microscopic way

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: now too. Like,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: so it's like just acknowledging like we, we. all human. We all face choices every, every day.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: we choose, well, sometimes we make mistakes. know, we, that's part of being human as well. So

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I like to ask is like, okay, so say, say that you've acted in a way that now. know, oh, I regret that maybe that that action wasn't serving the whole, maybe that action was very self-serving and, you know, I'm regretful about it.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: it's like, what else is true? Like there's pointing you back to we are, we are. Deep us humans. Um, we've got good, we've got bad. Uh, there's a place beyond good and bad also.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Um, but, but when we, but when we [00:29:00] overemphasize on maybe the bad, you know, we're, we're neglecting what else is true.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Yeah. What else is true? Like when you work with your, say clients, um, you don't have to like tell us their names, of course. What came up? Like if you have to give an example, like when you ask people, well, else is true. What do people say?

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Well, very often so in, in the, the, the method I use in my coaching is, is based on internal family systems and

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: parts work. And so very often it's, it's like a, again, it's like a partial view of something, you know.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: mm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: when, when we can acknowledge that [00:30:00] part, and there's a part that's really, um, afraid or angry or, you know, there's something, um, a real concern to a part of a client,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: can acknowledge that and. Very often, just the acknowledgement of that concern, that fear, that, uh, frustration, whatever it might be, something actually softens within our, our system, that makes it so much easier to see what else is true.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm. I like that. I think acknowledgement is actually a big part of the work already.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yes.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. It's, it's really a question of relationship and so that [00:31:00] means getting into deeper contact with all of ourselves.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Um. You know, you, I know you focus a a on this intersectionality, you know,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I think

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: internally as well.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: to understand our inner complexity, our inner diversity. Uh, it's like, you know, if you think when you're managing a team, it's like, well, you want the team to be cohesive. You want the team to understand each other so that the team can move forward in a, in a helpful way. And it's the same internally. It's like you want to understand all of the concerns, and you do it one by one.

It's like one thread by thread

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: understand. Um. So that you can, you know, it's, it, it really is the gateway as far as you know, I've seen and I believe into compassion.[00:32:00]

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: start to deepen your compassion for yourself. And the byproduct of that, again, as far as I can tell as far as I've seen, is that invites you into more compassion for others.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Right.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So if you

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Right.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you, know yourself with compassion. So much easier to meet. Someone might have a different view, might see the world in a different

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: way, but to meet that person with compassion.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I totally agree. I mean, it's very hard to practice that. Um, but I really do resonate with that. Um, I think if we don't have self-compassion for ourselves, we may never be able to achieve compassion for all. And the [00:33:00] reality is we are so hard on ourselves.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: hard on ourselves. Yeah. Yep.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Yeah. And in my work we call that the inner critic.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: a, there's a part of us that is. Um, criticizing us for something, um, definitely came from, from childhood.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Um, and there are, you know, I take the view that there are no bad parts. You know, that every part has a good intention, and those intentions are usually protective.

They're wanting to protect. We're wanting to protect ourselves from feeling hurt in some way. and so yeah, inner critic work, I think is, uh, I really believe it's universal. I think everyone has an inner critic of some sort. Um, but if you've got a part of you that's evaluating and judging [00:34:00] you, you also have a part that feels evaluated and judged and criticized, and that does, that doesn't feel good.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: No.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: But. That means that everybody else does too.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Right. We're all suffering.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: suffering. Yeah. So, so often we we're like, we feel judged by someone. and that's, you know, that's a complicated scenario. It's like, it's, it's like two inner critics, you know, judging each other and, um. So again, like it's a real interesting paradox because the way through some of this is accepting it exactly as it is.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: there's a part of me that's criticizing me. I wonder what the good intentions are behind that.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm. Okay.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And so when you can be with your experience with no intention to change [00:35:00] it, but from a place of curiosity.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: allowing or accepting, it's a process of discovery and yeah, that's, that's really the doorway, you know, forward to compassion,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: what's happening right now exactly as it is

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: getting to understand the truth of it. To understand the truth of it helps you see the goodness

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: something

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: from that.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. That's so real. And I, I don't know. I feel in today's world. It's just so hard to sit with it, right? Like the, the, the wise teachers often [00:36:00] say what it feels like, be with it, let it be there with you. Just don't try to chase it away, or, you know, just pretend it's not there. But rather it is here and sit with it.

You can meditate, you can um, do yoga. You can read, you can go for a walk, but just let it be with you. And I think that part alone is accepting because

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Exactly.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: it's gonna be here. Whether or not you like it.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: That's right. That's right. It's not easy. It is not easy,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you really got to the heart of it. It's, it is about acceptance. But what, what I think, like from as far as I can tell, like we have feelings about our feelings, so. You know, there are layers. That's why I call it following threads, [00:37:00] because we have feelings about feelings.

So you kind of have to start with the feeling about the feeling.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: There's a part of me that really hates this feeling of mine. really don't want that feeling to be here

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So I would say, well, let's work with that first. There's a

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that says, no, I do. I do not like, I don't like this. Okay. Then we get to know that. That part and that feeling.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: our feelings are really here for a reason. You know, I I, in some of my leadership, um, and learning programs, I really advocate for, you know, feelings belong in the workplace. Our feelings belong because they hold wisdom. They

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: decision making. They are the glue of our relationships.

Like our feelings belong. And even in

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: then you, maybe you get the sense like I do when I say that I feel like I belong when I say that my feelings belong.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I'm sure like you've had people just like, what do you mean? Like our feelings belong because like, I feel, um. Conventionally, you know, especially if you work at a corporate or like a office setting. People come here to work and then people leave and there is like very little, like it's not relational.

So if it's not relational, then of course you don't need feelings. Like you just come and go.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: The thing

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: It doesn't work that way.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: the thing is they're there, so if you don't acknowledge them, then they are going to, again, maybe sabotage some of the, the important goals that an, that an organization has, uh, in place, or they're gonna show up in other. Unhelpful and unproductive ways.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So [00:39:00] yeah, why? Let's actually acknowledge that there's some resistance here or there's some doubt or there's some frustration.

Um. I think again, like just what you had said earlier about acceptance, like there's something really powerful about accepting and acknowledging, like people wanna be seen, people want to be acknowledged for, of course we have a job to do,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: we don't show up without, without our, our feelings. They're there.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, and I think the two combined, you know, acknowledgement and acceptance, those two, which actually are very hard to do. Um, if we can acknowledge and accept ourselves for who we are and accept other people, I think, you know, our office and our workplace [00:40:00] will just become much better place.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Again, I think, I mean. Co coaching has really revealed to me that ultimately, you know, um, the quality of listening that you can provide for someone is, is the game changer. And, you know, even if it's just. Very, very brief. Like I, I, I really hear what you're saying. I acknowledge, you know, how you're feeling. We do have, you know, a purpose or a goal in place and I'd love to hear how you think we could contribute to that. But just that, that, that gesture of listening, acknowledging and unifying, you know,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: can really bring, um. Organizations forward. And you know, most importantly I'm focused on like, if, if you can't get that met in your workplace, then you can provide that for yourself,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: [00:41:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I feel for every leader, again, behind every leader is a real person. Like you can be, I don't know, director of something. You can be a CEO of something or you can be a big deal, whatever that is. I mean. At the end of the day, you go home, you're just a person. So, you know, it's like you, we have to go back to our personhood.

It, it's not always about leadership development or organizational management, and oftentimes it's about us being a person. How do we do that?

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: do we do that? I think that's the big question that we're living in right now is what is it

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Like what? It's to be human, you already mentioned.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: That is the, that is the big, big, big question. And, you know, since we're talking about, [00:42:00] um, leadership, maybe just a few more things to say on that. I think, I think of leadership as a way of being, you know, not just a role.

I,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: um, and these

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yep.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: really require, leaders who can. Remain in presence. You know, very grounded and, and humble who could tolerate uncertainty, who

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: paradox.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and I think all of that begins with like following the threads, um, letting. You know, life unfold. Like we, we sometimes ourselves that we think we can, you know, control our way through, um, this complexity that we

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: No.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: but we really can't.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Again, we have to be patient to, I mean of, we're just witnesses. We're [00:43:00] witnessing.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, I, yeah, I agree with that a lot. And I mean, in today's atmosphere, of course, this goes beyond leadership. Um, how can we hold paradox,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: like multiple things can be true at the same time. And we are overwhelmed and confused because if one thing contradicts another, then, then, then we don't really understand what's going on.

The reality, it really is, multiple things can be true at the same time.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: And yeah, and that's absolutely a paradox and it's, it can be frustrating and heartbreaking at times. But again, we need to acknowledge the, the reality we live [00:44:00] in. Um, yeah. And I think that's a really brave thing to do. Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, these times call for a lot of courage. Absolutely. Um. Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Um, we talked about. The Golden Threads. Um, it's beautiful. And we talked about, you know, relying on Mother Nature as the trusted guide and we talked about, uh, leadership and acknowledgement and acceptance. And I also know, you know. Julie, you have a very special approach to your practice and, um, and you call it a dreamwork.

So with the time we left, um, would you touch [00:45:00] kind of on the way you approach dreamwork or like what it's like.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Sure. Yeah. Thanks for. Asking. It's definitely, I think a, a unique, um, I call it an ecology of supporting practices. And so it's a, it's a supporting practice that I like to offer clients. And in fact, I'm, I've been working with someone recently who's in the middle of a huge career transition. and we're only working with. work. Um, and yeah, you know, it's interesting. Maybe I'll say just a little bit about what dream work has meant to me in my life.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I started keeping a journal. journaling since I was 12 years old, and at some point in the past few years, I went [00:46:00] back and looked at some of my childhood journals and my first journal. Entry was a, uh, a dream recording that I had,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Wow.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and it was a dream that represented a, definitely a childhood fear in this

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: But there was resource in this dream also, and there was joy. And

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: dreams can be like that. Dreams can hold fears and our emotions and, at night we're really like,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: we're. and metabolizing our lives and, and our emotions and our dreams can really be, um, a way to integrate that

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: a resource into the very, very challenges we're facing right now.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Um, so just saying that because dreams have been a part of, you know, my entire life, I've turned to dreams and when, um. [00:47:00] When I would get into a period where I was working very intensely and not,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: um, taking as good of care of myself

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: have been, uh, that would be a time in my life. I'm like, okay, it's time to go back to a Dream Journal. Because for me it was a source of creativity just to record my dreams. Like what's really up?

Like what is going, you know, what's going on? So learning dreamwork in this and it's a completely integrated, um, practice for me. So if I'm working with a coaching client, like we

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: we can explore a dream at any, at any time. Um,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: dreams I think are surfacing. I talked about like following a thread, you know, there's some kind of behavior,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: on that's really. Maybe a challenge. So our dreams are surfacing those threads for us,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and if we turn to the [00:48:00] dream and we don't interpret it, I'm not, not suggesting that, oh, that means this, and here's what I need to do. The dream is telling me this, like that. That's not my approach at all. Um, my approach is to unfold the dream.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And that means we, um, like we reenter the dream

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: if it's happening right now. And we like, you know, what's it like in this place, in this dream environment?

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: What's the temperature? Is it warm? Is it cold?

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: What's the quality of light, you know, is what's under your feet.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: That's cool.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: people tend, that tends to be very resourcing.

Like already you feel like you're, you know, the, you're, there's a lot of perspective opening that's happening in dreamwork.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: [00:49:00] Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And then we find a moment in the dream to unfold. And usually there's something that really calls both of us to that moment.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: a change, there's a big amount of energy, there's something happening that, that really has, has you curious.

And

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: we un we embody three perspectives in the dream.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And. I, I personally think that this, this particular skill of perspective taking like the skill that we need in these days because what's it like to be, you know, and I've had some pretty crazy dreams with, you know, some really, you know, uh, characters that I don't really want to embody, but I do, know, it's like, I don't think I can do it.

I can't embody this particular. or,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I do. [00:50:00] And in that, like, something shifts,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm. Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I've seen

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: where you embody a perspective, maybe, um, for example, somebody, em embodies the perspective of their partner or their

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: their daughter or maybe an ancestor.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: There's something, there's something so touching and like you just see the world in a different way. And then at the end of the process we kind of like, it's like a, this is kind of when the magic happens, but, but

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you talked about paradox and, and holding paradox and doing this kind of dream unfoldment is also a tool in helping us like. Hold paradox, hold

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: multiple perspectives.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And what I've seen over and over and over again is that where you land at the end of this process[00:51:00]

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: into a place of resource and capacity and wisdom and creativity and abundance.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: And. Somehow it happens to be the exact resource you need for some kind of challenge in your life. like now how do you view that particular that you're at or that particular challenge?

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Well, it's completely different from here. Like I know exactly what to do.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Wow. I love that. I think it's really cool approach and it's very, I mean. I hope at the end of this dream work with your clients, people feel as kind of a warmth. 'cause I can feel that, like you can feel a sense of warming or, um, taken care of or taken care of being taken care of. Um, it's interesting because last time I [00:52:00] had this kind of experience was actually like a, like a guided mushroom journey.

Um, and of course that's like medicine work, and I feel for folks who are not ready to take on like a mushroom or like a medicine work, I feel dream work could be a really cool, not necessarily alternative, but like a different approach to our inner wisdom,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Totally. In

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: like, yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: fact, I've, I've actually guided people who've been curious about doing, um, psychedelic work, but maybe not ready for psychedelic work.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yep.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: them to turn to dreamwork

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: it's very, very, um, supportive

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: in, in that same way. And even since you brought in the, um, the psychedelic, um, experience, dreams are really, really powerful to work with.

Leading up to a journey and,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: [00:53:00] Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and post journey as you're trying to integrate and experience,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: uh, into life.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: So it's very, uh, they weave beautifully together.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and I've also used dreamwork for some who had a, had a challenging experience in expanded state, uh, psychic of

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Oh,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: sort, so you could flash back into, uh, a, a dream moment or a journey moment. so, yeah, it's a, it's a that is very, um. Just dovetails beautifully in with the kind of, um, journey work that you're talking about, which, you know, may, maybe your listeners are like, what are they talking about? um, but it,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Yeah,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: right on. Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: yeah. That's really fascinating. I mean. Yeah, I mean if I, if I do drink some [00:54:00] dream work, I would love to. I don't know, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but I do see that as a really good resource for, um, I mean, again, this is not medical advice. I just have to put out disclaimer, this is not medical advice.

I'm saying it because I have a feeling that for folks who struggle with mental health. Um, matters or having challenges in life, perhaps dream work can, like you said, Julie, support people's, uh, healing journey.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I believe so. And, and you said something about feeling the warmth or feeling held and feeling like. Taken care of and, and that, I agree with that because feels like, I call it this just in time support.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: something is working on my behalf, you know, my dreams are working on my [00:55:00] behalf,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and sometimes there's a feeling like sometimes I've turned to a dream. Grief has its way of, of weaving into our dreams. And so

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yep.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: some kind of unacknowledged or unprocessed grief or sadness or some kind of feeling

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that just wants to be, and earlier you said, witnessed just wants to be witnessed

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: and dreamwork is,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: a perfect, um, vehicle.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Making space for those things. It's like something just wants to be seen and felt, and our dreams are, they're just trying to get our attention. I think.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah, I, I hope folks who listen to this conversation can think about that. I mean, I. We always consider dream as like, Ooh, this is so ooh. It's like it's in your subconscious and it's not real. It's [00:56:00] just a dream.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: The other thing I really, maybe just the last thing I'll say that why I love it so much is because it is like free.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: It is available to everyone.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I love it. Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: to everyone. And

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I mean.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: nice to have somebody to support you. Like, uh, I mean, I've done this enough that I can unfold my own dreams. Um, but it's, if someone does it for me, it's, I feel even more held have someone do it for you. Um, but it's a skill that, that we, I think we need to develop in these, these times, this big time of transition that we're going through. I think

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: where a lot of our resource will come from.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I cannot agree more. I think that's really true, and I hope people, I think we can all find the courage to experience it.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, yeah,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: yeah. We definitely need courage in, in these times. [00:57:00] And, uh, this could be, I think it's a playful way too. Like it's sometimes

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: think so too.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you know, it's

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: wild.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: so it can be, it can be fun as well.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: It's beautiful. I think it's beautiful. I think you know it, you mentioned earlier, you know, the work you do invites curiosity, which ju just everyone just be curious.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, it's a superpower who

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: a superpower?

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Well, thank you for asking about that though. 'cause I don't get to talk about it very often. So thank you for making the space and having the curiosity

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Of course,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: that.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: of course. I think it's really, really cool. Um, it haven't, I mean, until you told me about it, I haven't, I, I didn't know about it and I feel it's something that we should feel empowered to explore more.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Um, so that's wonderful. [00:58:00] So before we, uh, wrap up, can you tell where do people find you and work with you?

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: yeah. Well my website is um, golden thread coach.com. And I have a newsletter. , And you can find me on LinkedIn as well.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm-hmm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: yeah, so love to hear from you if you wanna explore some of these creative practices of getting to know, uh, yourself more deeply.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I would love to, um, do some dream work with you at some point. I just find it,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: I, I just find it fascinating. It's

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: yeah, and

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: cool.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: it's, it's a, i, I mean, here you can see I can't stop talking about it. It is the entryway to awe and wonder in, in my view, like,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Mm.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: like the world seems enchanted when you trust your dreams.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Okay. You are definitely from [00:59:00] Oregon

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: I was born here. I'm from Oregon. Yes,

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Enchanted. That's just so beautiful. Thank you so much, Julie.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: thank you. It's been so good getting to know you and uh, I've just enjoyed our time together. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Me too. I loved it. I think there's so much, there's so much richness and so much wisdom in it, and you deliver in a very gentle way, so I really appreciate that. Um,

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: you.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: and I'm sure we'll see each other soon.

julie-gefroh--she-her-_1_01-26-2026_140639: Yeah, look forward to it.

zhou--she-her-_4_01-26-2026_140639: Okay. Uh, I'm gonna re stop recording here. Thank you.