We don't all fit into one archetype | Tong Zhang on leadership, motherhood, and Chinese American/Asian American identity

Transcript:
Speaker1: [00:00:14] Hello. I am Zhou again.

Speaker2: [00:00:18] And I'm Dee. And today we are very excited to have a guest with us.

Speaker1: [00:00:25] For the first time. Yes. And this is our second episode. And today we have the honor and pleasure to have our friend and peer Tong Zhang here joining us. She is a leader in the nonprofit education sector. Welcome, Tong.

Speaker3: [00:00:42] Thank you so much for inviting me to be here.

Speaker2: [00:00:44] Yeah, we're Excited to have our first guest. Yay!

Speaker1: [00:00:49] No pressure. No pressure.

Speaker1: [00:00:51] Oh, my God.

Speaker2: [00:00:53] Working through it. So, yeah, I guess we want to start by diving into identity or intro by way of the roundabout identity framework that we're using here. And so we're looking at identity from this intersectional perspective, right? But with this visual of a roundabout where we're sort of standing with you on your identity roundabout and you're introducing us to the different paths or streets that come out of the roundabout for you. And so maybe at different phases in your life, different streets may appear, different streets may disappear, different streets might get wider or smaller. Right. So we'd love to talk about, for you, what are the biggest streets right now? What's really informing your identity at this point in time?

Speaker3: [00:01:48] Wow. So I am a mom and of two really little babies. I mean, one is not a baby anymore. One's a toddler. The other one is still an infant. And I think that that is probably my widest intersection of part of the intersection right now. But it's something I've always you know, I will share that I struggled a lot with infertility. And so having the kids was really important to me. But for so long, because that journey for me was so long, I focused on my career. And so I think that I'm at the point where I am trying to figure out, you know, how big is my career LANE and how big is my family lane? So those are very important parts of my identity. I think other parts, you know, I'm Chinese-American and I'm trying to constantly, especially with having kids, like thinking my husband is Filipino and us trying to figure out like, okay, as our kids are second ish generation, how do we impart parts of our cultures but making them feel secure in their own identities? I mean, they're little babies and they don’t really care right now, but, you know, for the future, because we have a lot of privilege in our lives. But my husband was born here in the States, but I immigrated here when I was five. And I just feel like there's a lot of still like we had very immigrant stories and we don't need to impart trauma onto our kids and but at the same time, we want them to be grounded. So those are some parts that I'm definitely holding right now and thinking about.

Speaker2: [00:03:43] And I noticed when I was looking at your trajectory, you also have a Ph.D. It seemed like you went straight from undergrad into PhD life, and you've built up quite a trajectory of leadership in your career. And I'm wondering, was that sort of a straight arrow journey for you or whether a lot of pathways and looking back on it from where you are now and you're around about how does that feel.

Speaker3: [00:04:16] I love the idea of the roundabout because I feel like for a long time I feel like I'm sort of on a roundabout now, but for a long time it was definitely just like a straight, straight away. Because when I was a kid we immigrated to the country and I just felt so much pressure to be like, okay, I need to make sure that I am successful, whatever that was. My parents were not the type or like, you must be a doctor or you must be whatever. They were more like, You must get straight A's and you must do well. But without any sort of guidance about what that meant. They're just like, You must be the best you possibly can. So that was obviously very stressful. And I was like, Okay, well, I don't know what that means. I have no idea. I don't I'm kind of I remember when I was a kid and I was interested. I was interested in being a teacher. I was interested in being a psychologist. And I would always think even when I was like 12, I was like, So I don't know how to make money. How how would I make money doing that? Exactly right. I sort of could understand the teacher thing, but I was like, Well, maybe I'm not. Like at the time I was like, Oh, maybe I'm not reaching high enough. I don't know. It was just like a lot of like, okay, I don't really know what being successful means, so I'm just going to do well in school. And then, like, I was never actually like, Oh, I'm going to go be a scientist or anything. It just kind of happened. It happened via happen-stance because I did well in my classes. And if you're doing well in your classes, you do well and you're like math and science classes, and then you just end up being progressing more and more. So I just kind of ended up that way. And then I was like when I was choosing a major for college and everything, I was like, Well, I don't know what I was going to do. And my dad actually did it. And he was like, Well, why don't you do a biochemistry major? And I was like, I don't know what that means, but okay. And so obnoxious to say, but I chose it because it was the most rigorous. So it was the one that was like you had to have more credits than you needed to. And I was like very much like, Oh, I must be valedictorian, I must be doing all these things. And yeah, I was definitely an overachiever, but not because I necessarily wanted because I was like, I have a big chip on my shoulder that I had to prove myself. Not really sure to who, but like I had to prove myself. And so then I just kept on going and going, going. And then that's when. Then I was like, okay, when I'm at grad school, I was finishing or me finishing up undergrad. I was like, Well, my dad at that point did tell me he was like, you know, they helped me with college and support. And they're like, Well, we are definitely not supporting you any time after college. Yeah. And it was great to help me grow up because I was like, Well, then I can't be like homeless. So I have to get a job of some sort or make money. And that's literally why I chose to go into a PhD, because a biomedical in the biomedical field, they pay for you to go down that road as opposed to like if you go to medical school or anything. I didn't really want to go to medical school, but that's a lot of money that you have to pay. And I was just like, I just finance finances is really important to us growing up. And I just was so yeah, I had that in my head that I had to make money and I had to make sure that like not that I had to be rich, but I had to be able to take care of myself financially. And so that's how I ended up in grad school. And then I realized a few years into grad school, I was like, Yeah, this is not really what I want to be doing. At that point, I was just like, Well, I have no tangible skills besides tissue culture and pipetting.

Speaker1: [00:07:59] What. Are. Those?

Speaker3: [00:08:01] Like a fume hood and then you're like growing cells on a petri dish. I was actually quite good at that part, but then there was a lot of mouse work I had to do. I was terrible. I probably I was really terrible at giving injections. And so, yeah, yeah, I wasn't great at that, but I was still doing okay. I just was like, this is and it wasn't that part that I didn't like. It was the fact that it was in academia research. It was very male dominated. It was very especially I was at Johns Hopkins, which is one of the most elite research universities in the world. And I felt so much pressure like they literally have this room at Hopkins Medical school, which is this giant boardroom with hung like on the on the sides or these like gigantic portraits of old white men in a boardroom. And that's where we had to give presentations and stuff. And I remember thinking, yeah, I was just like. I'm I think I was again thinking about being successful. And I was like, I'm never going to be successful because. Like, I don't know what it takes to ever be like on these walls. And I would hear about how like, you just had to know people and you had to like, yes, you have to outcompete people. And I was like, okay, at science, we can't really be science. You have to be like, really. Good at it if you want to go into academia research. And so that's actually at that point and I'm sorry if I'm sharing too much. At that point was when I decided I was like, okay, I need to go look at other skills, so I'm going to start volunteering. And so I sort of volunteering at a nonprofit that was working directly with kids because, like I said, my earliest tendencies was wanting to be a teacher. And so I was like, Oh, I love kids and, you know, maybe I can volunteer and figure out what this all not to become a teacher necessarily, but just try to figure out honestly, I was very depressed at the time to make myself feel better, you know, like, okay, what can I do that feels like I'm making any sort of impact? And yeah, I ended up at a nonprofit. I was in Baltimore at the time called Thread, and I started it was all volunteer run at that time. And so I started just doing additional sort of administrative work as well. And I started just really I was like, I'm really good at spreadsheets, decently good at talking with people, and it kind of just spun out from there and when I finished grad school, like getting a job there. And it was a startup essentially at that time of a nonprofit and helped build a lot of infrastructure, helped to build like my own skills and just kind of accidentally, like everything else in my life, fell into it and grew the nonprofit. I was the chief operating officer at the time and yeah, started doing that, and that's how I ended up in nonprofit work.

Speaker2: [00:10:58] So you, you said it was volunteer at the beginning. Yeah. So does that mean you raise the money for your own position for staff positions?

Speaker3: [00:11:07] I wasn't at the time so it was volunteering. But then the executive director there was an executive director there. I think that that she being in her position, she was also in originally and in academia and seeing how she, like, made the transition to nonprofits. I was like, okay, well, if she can do it, then I needed something tangible to see because like, there's, like boardroom pictures was what I saw before. So when I saw her do the work, I was like, okay, I think I could probably do this. There's a lot of similar, like translatable skills. And so but she was the one who was raising the money at the time. But she and I were partners at the time trying to figure out like, how do we build this into a organization that's not a volunteer organization, not just a volunteer organization. So by the time that I joined a staff, I was actually a paid staff member. And by the time that I left, like four or five years later, we had like 10-15 staff members. And we still have obviously relied heavily on volunteerism as the main model. But it was a lot that I learned in that time.

Speaker1: [00:12:18] So would you say your time there at the organization in Baltimore is the time when or where you were shaped to be a leader in the nonprofit world?

Speaker3: [00:12:33] Yeah, I definitely think so, because in that experience I did so many things that I feel like I was all doing very academic things before. So I was like, you know, I'm trying to achieve and and I think that that was another thing that might have been interpreted on me by my parents who told me. That when I was younger. The reason one of the reasons I went into more scientific fields was like, if you go into more like communications, language, arts, it's always going to be subjective. It's always going to be subjective and you're never going to be able to compete with native born English speakers. And so I felt like I went into like a scientific field because it was like, okay, this is like measurable. I can be successful in math because they're like math problems you solve. Like, It's either solved or it's not solved. And a lot of like scientific aspects was also similar. But then when I started doing work in the nonprofits, I felt like I actually like I didn't know anything, but I ended up getting so much practice and so many things and they did have tangible results. So I was like, okay, when I got a tangible result, I realized I was like, Oh, I did that actually okay. Like something good. There was plenty of times I was like. The mess things up completely and was like very humbled by it. But I had to learn from it. But I know I iterated and the next time I did it better. And so I feel like I just had so many more things to practice in. I was able to, I think, build more confidence as a leader. I never did any of the like leadership things prior to doing that job. I was never really doing any sort of leadership activities. But then when I was in that that role, I was a leader and I realized that a lot of my decisions had significant impact on people. Yeah, it just led me to grow a lot and get more confidence as time went by.

Speaker1: [00:14:40] Yeah, Dee and I, we recently were chatting about finding your community and your space and would you (Dee) like to share like what we were talking about and we thought we'll be very relevant to our conversation today.

Speaker2: [00:14:56] Yeah, so I, everyone's identity involves a lot Every time my roundabout is now like it has a street like, Oh, I'm a software engineer, I'm a lesbian. Like all these, like new lanes that have just recently been defined late in the game. I'm 38 years old, which it happen sooner. What can you do? But I recently went to a conference. I'm wearing the t shirt “lesbians who tech” and it was amazing to because as I as I shifted from nonprofit to tech, it was also a shift from being able to keep myself in a in a very diverse racial context because I was working at racial justice organizations suddenly in tech to being in this white male dominated industry.

Speaker3: [00:15:42] It's almost the opposite!

Speaker2: [00:15:44] Exactly. So suddenly finding myself as one of the few, if not the only queer woman of color engineers at my company. It was amazing to go to this conference and suddenly be one of the first events I went to was a queer Woman of Color Breakfast, where they gave us mimosas immediately. It was wonderful and it was like, Wow, I feel so safe and inspired and comfortable here. Like, it's so different from the dynamic that I'm operating in, in a work context. It was a big moment for me to feel like, oh, I can actually feel a sense of belonging with my social location in this industry. And what we're wondering is like, were there moments like that for you along the way where you developed like a sense of belonging with your particular identity and working role?

Speaker3: [00:16:39] Yeah, it's a really.. I mean, I can imagine that situation for you, and it just feels like I can imagine myself in a situation where I feel so supportive. And I'll be honest, I haven't been there yet. And I think that, What I have been able to do over time is like. When I have been able to start a role and I've done this a couple of times now, so like in my new role or not new, but I've been in my current role as executive director of an organization, Mesa, that, you know, in the beginning I always like started out not knowing anyone. And I'm actually like, I kind of get I have some social anxieties. When you go into a new space and you're like, I don't know what's going on here. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And I always get like that for like new hats that I wear. But I always feel a sense of accomplishment where so at least I like when I was at thread in the beginning. I go to these like networking things and not know anyone, and I felt like it was really fulfilling by that and that I left that role. I walked into spaces and events that we had and I just knew so many people and I felt like I did have like such an amazing community. And that is something that I realized is, I will give myself credit, like credit to my relationship building skills and something that I've taken in different roles that I've had. But I think that the role that you're talking about, where it's like that space is for you. I go to different events now in Portland and my nonprofit works in the STEM and equity space, and I'm working with like middle and high school students especially. But we work with a lot of industry and we work with a lot of community members. And I'll sometimes go to like a tech events and I remember one of them I went to like a couple of years ago, somebody I think thought I was like either a secretary or like a student. And I get mistaken for being a student because I'm also 38 and I don't I don't know if I look extremely young or something like that. But yeah, it's just I always feel like I am the odd one out and now I'm based. So my organization is based at a College of Engineering and is predominantly older, white and Asian men. And so that's an even different perspective that I felt because like. I am Chinese. And so it's like. Yes, I have similar background. Also an immigrant to some of the faculty that are at the college. But it's. There are very few Asian women in leadership and I haven't been in many spaces where I really do feel like most spaces I'm in, sometimes there are a lot of women generally in this area as white women. There are spaces that have more Asian folks. But a lot of the events that I've been in with there more community events, but not in necessarily spaces where it's like my specific work. So I've never really felt that like. The Mimosa Breakfast? Yeah, I yeah, I love that for you. I know I want that for myself as well. And I think that that's a problem that I or maybe I just haven't gotten. Invited to the Mimosa breakfast. If that's out there, then please send me an invite.

Speaker2: [00:20:23] Yeah, we should.. We should start or we should start.

Speaker1: [00:20:26] Yes, we should start one. Yes. I think that speaks volumes. It's like for someone like you who've been working in nonprofit and education for such a long time, Right. And you still haven't found that space or community for you as a leader. I think that is yeah…

Speaker2: [00:20:49] That is deep. I when I was at this Lesbians Who tech conference, I was like, gosh, why aren't there more spaces like this? Great. Because we all saying the same thing like we don't get this at all unless we go to something like this. And we, you know, we had the privilege of traveling, being able to travel to it. And I don't know, I feel like we just need these more local access to the feeling of belonging.. so we can start more spaces like that here.

Speaker3: [00:21:25] I will also say that I think that being Asian especially is in yes, I identify as being a woman of color, but I think also being Asian like it's an it's an identity that depending if you're not.. So Portland is not quite like San Francisco or Seattle, where the Asian population is so much that we feel like there are areas. I remember actually I went to University of Washington and there are a lot of Asian students there, and I remember my first day there, I was like, Oh my gosh, there's so many Asian people! Where do they all come from? And it was such a… and I ended up in I reflect, I met my husband in college. A Filipino. So my, my friend group from college all Asian people because Yeah that's, Yeah. But other places that I've lived that hasn't been the case. And I think that oftentimes though in my spaces, even like I feel like my identity and it's it is my I need to own also like not leading with the fact that I'm Asian. Like I don't think that that is sometimes like people honestly will forget that I'm not white and I'm like. I'm Chinese. You guys can tell me like I appear Chinese. There is no way that people have, you know. And I think that that people recognize it. But I think that there is an aspect of that identity that people tend to erase. And I think it's a lot of spaces that I'm a part of that, that it doesn't also get acknowledged in a way where it has importance by itself. And I think especially in the work when we were doing racial equity work and racial justice work, so much of my work is also advocating for black and brown students. And that is so important. And part of my challenge for myself in my own identity, I guess in my roundabout, is feeling like, how can I both advocate for communities I don't belong to, but then also stand in my own identity and feel comfortable? And I will say I'm still like that is that's where I'm at in my journey is I'm still trying to accurately define where I feel most comfortable because I'm like, I have a lot of aspects to my identity. I feel like aren't don't normally make me feel like I'm usually the only person that identifies. Exactly right. Zhou, Can I say that You only Chinese friends!?

Speaker1: [00:23:58] Really? I feel honored.

Speaker3: [00:24:00] And I was so excited to meet you!

Speaker2: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker1: Also the way we met. Yes. So random.

Speaker2: [00:24:10] How did you meet?

Speaker1: [00:24:12] It was an email from Mesa and said I was invited to the annual event and that was before the pandemic. And I think it was supposed to happen like winter 2020 or something. And then it didn't happen because of COVID. But somehow I got invited to these. I was like. What? Like I'm not a STEM person, like. Yeah. So I responded. I'm like, I don't know how I got this invitation, but I would love to go. And I think eventually, like there were some back and forth. I don't remember details, but it was pretty funny. But I still don't know why I got that email.

Speaker3: [00:24:58] Yeah, I don't remember either. I actually remember the email that you responded back to me was I. I think about that because I feel like it's part of my journey is that when the Asian hate crimes were happening and I think I put out a statement about like Stop-asian-hate as part of our newsletter and I think you responded something about that. And, and then that's how we connected and we started like, going back and forth about meeting and chatting and different things.

Speaker1: [00:25:32] I mean, when you whenever you bring back the Mesa gala, I would still like to go.

Speaker3: [00:25:41] Sore spot for our gala. That never happened.

Speaker1: [00:25:46] I think It will happen.

Speaker2: [00:25:52] So speaking of Zhou, being one of your only Chinese friends here, I'm wondering, you said you grew up in Happy Valley. Yes. And what was that like? What were the racial demographics like? Were you the only Chinese American in the room?

Speaker3: [00:26:09] There was probably a few others, but we but I would say it's like a few others. And we were all kind of I remember when I went to high school, we had an Asian table.

Speaker1: [00:26:22] What?

Speaker3: You're not familiar with that? I guess not if you were not growing up here in the states, I don't know if it depends on. I don't know where. Where did you (Dee) grow up?

Speaker2: [00:26:30] I grew up in Maine. It isn't enough for a table. Yeah. And being mixed race, everyone was like, What the fuck is she like, There was no there was no table. Yeah.

Speaker3: [00:26:44] So the trickiness with that table was even like, I wasn't invited to sit at the table. I had friends who were part of the table and this is a large like have many tables, but it was like one table because I was, I think sometimes either seen as too fresh off the boat. Or to whitewash. I don't know how I could have possibly been both at the same time, but because I spoke English. Well, I speak English the same way I spoke when I was in high school. But but then I think that a lot of my interests were, I guess, more white because of the fact that I was growing up in Portland. And so the racial demographics were largely white, and it was actually pretty socioeconomically diverse. But yeah, mostly white. And I most of my friends were white. And I think that just race was not. That's why I had that moment in college when I went and I was like, Oh my gosh, there are other people like me.

Speaker2: [00:27:41] Yeah, I had that exact moment at college in New York City.

Speaker3: [00:27:45] Oh, yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

Speaker2: [00:27:47] Yeah. First first year. Yeah. Moving in actually freshman year and meeting the person who would become my best friend, who was still my best friend. I was like… her name is Angela. Like Angela. You you sort of you you features are sort of like my mom's features. And she's like, Oh, is your mom Filipina? And I was like. I guess so. Like my I was actually yeah, my, my experience growing up was actually more like that of a transracial adoptee where my mom had so much shame around her identity and this internal conversation happening that she would just tell everyone she was Hawaiian. She never used the word Filipino.

Speaker3: [00:28:38] Was she actually Hawaiian? Then?

Speaker2: [00:28:42] She she happened to Be born in Honolulu because that's where her parents landed when they first immigrated. Got it from the Philippines. Yeah. So she just happened to be born there. She didn't spend any time there. They she was a Navy brat, so they got immediately stationed elsewhere. But because she felt like it was more acceptable and people like exotic in a good way for her to say that she was from Hawaii, like that was her heritage. So I didn't even know that. And my dad was white and racist and actually kept us like we weren't allowed to spend more than 2 hours at a time with the Filipino side of our family because he didn't want us influenced by Catholicism. I mean, that's what he said. But yeah, Catholicism. Catholicism, yeah, it's a whole it's a whole traumatic thing. But yeah, I didn't know until college even how I could identify. Like I just was totally confused and felt so ostracized all through high school without even a vocab for my difference. It was very strange, but college was wonderful.

Speaker3: [00:29:46] That is. Yeah, that is fascinating. And also, I'm so sorry.

Speaker2: [00:29:51] Thank you.

Speaker3: [00:29:55] You know, what's interesting about that is also I've looked back at so I was Facebook friends with some people I went to high school with. And because my 20th high school reunion was coming around, I started looking at some old people that were on my Facebook that I hadn't really connected in a long time. And there were actually more people from my high school who were Asian or like half Asian. Yeah. Then. And I was like, but they never I, I think that they might have had a similar experiences where there were people I was like, I had no because I would look at picture and it'd be, you know, a person saying like, Oh, I'm with my mom, and I'm like, your mom looks Asian. I did not think that you were Asian. Yeah, I feel like so much of that experience was erased and we were just all kind of part of this monoculture of, yeah.

Speaker1: [00:30:44] Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I grew up in China, but there were times when I, you know, I lived in the Midwest and I lived in Central Oregon. There were times when people would tell me that now it sounds really terrible, but I don't think their intention was bad. But what they said was something like, I feel like you are just like us. I feel like you are just like one of us. Like you don't you don't feel Chinese to me. And I was just like, I don't know how to interpret that. Like, I don't think they meant the bad thing.

Speaker3: [00:31:26] They meant that as a compliment.

Speaker1: [00:31:28] Right, right. Insidious. Right. Like. What's wrong about being Chinese. Right. And so, so that's my experience of the erasure of your Asian, of our Asian identities collectively. Yeah.

Speaker3: [00:31:49] I think that that also resonates with me. And the aspect of the I was actually, I think my not exactly equivalent situation, but I was afraid of saying that I was Chinese for a really long time because I would say that I was Asian. So that would be my equivalent of saying like the Hawaiian. Yeah, because. Of like geopolitics. I emigrated to the US in 1989 and like Chinese people, like actually to this day, still like it's very hard for identities, at least the way that I feel to be associated from like geopolitical matters, because it's always like an enemy, like not an active enemy, but like a essentially a Cold War enemy that and I like people and when I was young in school would call me, call me and stuff like that, but like jokingly, you know, And so that kind of stuff. And I remember so like my I remember we were talking once, I think this was the middle school and somebody we were learning about like different countries. And I think China came up and a student in the class was like, Oh, are they are they Christian? And the person, And our teacher was like, No, they're not Christian. And the students that, oh, well, then they're bad.

Speaker2: [00:33:12] Oh, oh, oh.

Speaker3: [00:33:15] And I remember internalizing that and I was like, oh, and, and it was like not a lot of like, acti-, you know, like it's very different than I mean, nowadays, like, I feel like people are very like, active with their hatred. Back then it was all just like, I mean, it was all underneath and it was all just the micro-aggressions, macroaggressions. But like, you know, a lot of that was pretty pervasive. And my parents and I would go around Oregon and to rural parts and we get stared at all the time. And yeah, that was pretty common when I was growing up here.

Speaker1: [00:33:59] I think the kind of some sort of version from my experience when I was in China is, you know, Chinese is a very singular kind of like everyone in China is Chinese. So whenever we see a person of color in the street. That kind of like unspoken, like othering and aggression was also projected on whoever that person is. Walking the street is like the stare and some sort of like..

Speaker2: [00:34:33] Or like when people.. when I lived in Beijing for a little bit and when people would say, Oh, are you Uygur? And yeah, like locals would ask me if I was Xing Jiang Ren and I was like, No, I'm not. And they're like, Oh, good, you stay away from them. You know, there's Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll steal your shit. Yeah.

Speaker1: [00:34:53] Yeah. So things like. I'm sure you had that. Yeah. So like, the kind of, like, unclear who you are. And no matter where I go, it's always like, yeah

Speaker3: [00:35:07] So my husband's Filipino. And we told my grandfather that he was my, my parents said that I had to tell my grandparents that he was from like, western China.

Speaker1+2: [00:35:18] What? What? Wait, why? Why?

Speaker3: Because he's not Chinese. So. So it's okay. They both. They've both passed, so my Grandparents won't know that he's not Chinese, but.

Speaker2: [00:35:39] Wow. But they would have been that upset if he was not upset.

Speaker3: [00:35:43] But, you know, it certainly was better that he was.

Speaker1: [00:35:52] So. I think it just shows this is not like a uniquely American problem. It's like.

Speaker2: [00:35:58] Oh, yeah. It's everywhere.

Speaker3: [00:36:00] Racial othering happens. Informed by different histories, for sure. Yeah, but there's the colourism. The discrimination.

Speaker1: [00:36:10] Yeah. And I guess I'm curious because at the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned, you know, as a parent, you want to try to paraphrase here is to now pass your trauma to the next generation and kind of do that because your children are interracial and.

Speaker2+3: [00:36:29] Well, not inter-ethnic. Inter-ethnic.

Speaker1: [00:36:31] Oh, yeah. Interethnic. Sorry. Multiethnic. So I wonder, you know, in your day to day, if you can share something in that kind of area.

Speaker2: [00:36:45] And can I build on that question? Yeah, because I'm always I've always been like, oh, I would never if I had kids, I would never raise them where I grew up in Maine because it was such a negative experience for me. So I'm super curious what it's like raising kids now where you grew up. Yeah.

Speaker3: [00:37:01] Yeah. So. Well, the good thing about where I grow up now, I live like a mile away from where I spent a lot of my like K through 12 time growing up. It is actually far more diverse, actually because of the sort of because of the gentrification that's happened in inner Portland. The people of color have like moved out to the suburbs. And so we have actually so it's very different racial makeup than when I was growing up. So I feel kind of better about that and good about that for my kids from that perspective. But I think from the like. From the aspect of feeling like. I think it really is also for both my husband and I about sort of our socioeconomic status, like when we both.. my husband's family also was in the military and in the Air Force and they and like pretty much went right into that from being from the Philippines and similar to my family in the fact that like we we were poor coming into the country. But then we're able to advance over time that we remember what it was like to like, be poor and but still, like managed to be able to be in a place where we, like, never, struggled significantly financially, but we're always aware, like just very, very aware of finances, like always very aware of making sure that like we're save money and spend money on this and not that and everything like that. And I'm in a place now where… I do actually still feel guilty saying this is just like we're pretty socioeconomically secure and we're doing pretty well. And that makes me nervous because so much of the struggle of like and that's one of the things that Alex and I like my husband and I connected on was like the fact that, like, we're like we both knew like we're in an okay place now where we're like, well educated, but like, both knew what it was like, right? But at the same time, it's that's when I was like, I don't want to pass that on. So like, make my I used to be a terrified. This is completely irrational, but I used to be terrified that I would like be homeless and I used to be terrified that I would be deported. And and those those things were not things that I were like really? Like my parents never said that. But, you know, just like the cues that I got because of that, that we worried so much about finances and worry so much about like getting a green card and like, those are such pivotal times. Like, I remember like I think that that did teach me responsibility. And Alex being, having grown up in the military, there was a lot of like, okay, you know, I can't act poorly because, you know, I reflect back on my dad and like, all so we kind of had like society teaching us, but now we're like, we have to teach our kids this, like without, without these like, negative social pressures. And so yeah, this like wrestling with actually being able to have like children who grow up to be like, feel liberated but empathetic. I'm not really sure I'm a little nervous about because, yeah, I don't think I quite figured it out. But this is definitely it's like I think community is definitely like, that's why I'm now conscious of like we got to find parents from the same like, you know, like backgrounds as just like growing up. So we, like our kids will grow up again, being able to feel like they have choice, but also being responsible because, you know, we don't want them to be sociopaths.

Speaker2: [00:40:36] Right, right, right. You want them to have values that it sounds like you developed based on some experiences of adversity. Yeah, right. But they aren't necessarily going to experience that adversity.

Speaker3: [00:40:51] I think that they're going to definitely experience maybe similar to what you like. People aren't going to be like aren't going to be sure what right, what race they are and what ethnicities they are like. They both they both… Look Asian ish right now, but a lot of people think that they look half white like they are going to they're going to have new experiences that that my husband and I did not experience an experience of being different. Yeah, but they will be different. And I think that being able what I really most want them to know is like what I've tried is, you know, be able to do the things that we do culturally, like get them really close to both, both sets of grandparents so that they understand like, you know, different like Filipino culture traditions, different Chinese culture traditions in a way that's also not like.. we're doing this on purpose, but very just like really making sure that family is important and integrated with what we do.

Speaker2: [00:41:46] But just coming at it with that intentionality is around culture and tradition is.. it warms my heart as someone who grew up without any of that.

Speaker3: [00:41:55] Well, do you have tips for me about what I should do?

Speaker2: [00:41:59] Yeah, the exposure is super important. You know, like spending as much time with the different generations or different. I mean, I always wished as a kid or I wish, you know, looking back, I had actually been taken to the Philippines. Right. That was just not never even on the table. I had to do that myself later on. And then I had like I felt, So what's the word like neglected in this respect that I went and got a Master's in Asian American Studies. I was like, My way to access this now is purely academic. I mean, it sounds like you're already doing that with with your with your kids, with your family. Like you have that intention of passing knowledge or creating sort of a family context where that kind of knowledge is prioritized so they don't have to do that later themselves?

Speaker3: [00:42:50] I think that what I mean, that experience is still like there's still like the Americanness that I haven't like I say, I feel like there's the Chinese culture, there's Filipino culture. But what about like Chinese-Filipino-American culture? I feel like that's the hard part that I'm trying to add in and try to figure like, okay, in The US. Yeah. How will they experience, like, everyday life? How will they be able to make sure that they feel like Because I still, like I mentioned earlier, haven't quite figured that out for myself or like how can I firmly be a proud Chinese American and feel.. Yeah, I don't have to apologize for any aspect of that and I think I'm still like working on that for myself.

Speaker2: [00:43:34] Yeah, and I think it's extra difficult here in Oregon because of the racial demographics here, like versus when I was in LA. And I can go to Filipino town and go to community meetings, events, with where the food is out like and you feel that sense of belonging. But here we don't have access to those kinds of Filipino-American, Chinese-American, Vietnamese-Americans. Well, there's a little bit more Vietnamese American presence here, but I don't see as much of like the community events that you could have access to in places like LA, Or elsewhere in California.

Speaker3: [00:44:08] Yeah, definitely. It's a challenge for sure

Speaker2: [00:44:09] Looking at the time, and I'm wondering if we can shift to what we call like our road sign portion. Sure. Where for you and feel free to build on this for you. If you were to put road signs up around your roundabout or on different lanes, either for people who are maybe experiencing something similar to you or people who are totally different from you and you want them to like, know like this is how you should be. Like, this is how I wish you would interact with me, right?

Speaker3: [00:44:46] I think… this is a hard question. Yeah. So I know it's a good question. I think what I would probably say is my road sign is that I think that I see this a lot. So I'm I'm getting there in terms of the what I think that roadside would be. But I see this a lot where especially in media like Asian women and Asian people's interior lives are erased, or it's just like it's just identity. It's just like, okay, that's all that is. And I think that there are so there actually so few stereotypes that people have of Asian women that oftentimes I feel like people just slot them into different things. So I just I feel like my… We have interior lives. There's a lot going on. Like, you can be like, I think maybe one of them could be like, we can be. Funny, but not outrageous because I feel like sometimes though the reason is like now it's like, was her name the the comic who is now like, I feel like (Ali Wong) that's another one where it's like, Oh, you be funny, but you have to be like, outrageous. And it's just like, you know, like there are… There's lots of people, there's lots of you have different like everybody has different personalities and stuff like that. And I just feel like take like, understand there's nuance. Understand that there is. Yeah, we don't all fit into one type of archetype and there are and I think that, that I wish that in I think professional life we can get more exposure. And I think that's where it's like if we can get more people to become leaders, to become to enter into different fields, I just, I want people to be themselves and want it to be like more obviously themselves without having to hide those parts of themselves because part of it is feeling enriched for yourself. But also I think it does help other people like hearing your stories, really like understanding that there are differences to how people experience things is just, I think, so enriching for other people as well. So I think just don't.. sorry, I'm like modifying it. It's like, no, don't be apologetic about who you are.

Speaker2: [00:47:00] Right? Own it. Yeah, own it, share it.

Speaker3: [00:47:03] Yeah. And it's going to be so uncomfortable. But yeah, you know, what's the what's the harm. Like. Like we're just going to keep on being quiet and just, like, things will never change? and that doesn't benefit ourselves. It doesn't benefit other people.

Speaker2: [00:47:22] Well, on that note, I think we can wrap up. Any closing words for you, Zhou?

Speaker1: [00:47:29] My closing words would be I think Henry would 100% agree with you, Tong. Never apologize for being your true self.

Speaker2: [00:47:42] Yes. Henry is very secure in expressing himself. That is for sure. I see that standing looking at us right now and saying, Why have you been sitting here for so long? Yes. And I want to thank you so much, Tong, for joining us and having this conversation.

Speaker3: [00:47:59] Thank you for inviting me. This is great.

Speaker2: [00:48:02] Thank you so much.

Speaker2: [00:48:03] Yeah, I have so many more questions.

Speaker1: [00:48:05] Me, too. My my brain is like, oh, God, I want to talk about this. I want to talk about that as well. But we don't have time. So until next time?

Speaker2: [00:48:14] Until next time.

Speaker3 [00:48:16] Thank you, guys.